Forum Activity for @Colin Green

I would urgently like to know if the Krebs has a substantial air flow please? I am doing very light products (freeze dried fruit) and as they are so light I need as small an air plow as I can get.

Any thoughts please? I'm in a bind and need to purchase a gun as soon as possible.

Thanks!

Hi Paul,

I have just posted that I think that part of the problem may be over filling too. I very much apprecviate your confirmation of the shellac back-to-back possibility too. I changed both of those variables (filling & shellac residue) and have a far improved result.

I don't use a shellac powder - I use a liquid (Capol 425M). I didn't know there was a powder and I'll keep that in mind. If you don't use shellac how do you seal the surfaces?

The chocolate is 62%. I use Sicao (sometime Barry Callebaut) 70% and also 55% and combine them to get it "just right" for the balance for coffee beans, which is what I mostly do. For simplicity I tend to stay with the same mix for all dark chcolare work. I had wondered if the mixture was a problem too but for now it remains a "possibility" to ponder next time.

You mention your environment. I have been over your various pictures and saved them for inspiration as I need to re-do my room. You have a very similar set-up to me as far as I can see but your wall surfaces and some of your equipment is better. Your pan seems about the same as mine - a bit smaller I think. You look really well organized! You have two pans?

In one of the pics you have two pipes leading into your pan - one will be cold air. What is the other one please (the flexible pipe).

Thanks again!

Colin

I tried your thought Jeremy, and reduced the amount in the pan - re-did in two batches. I got a far better result.

So maybe over-filling is the problem. I was careful to stay within the 15Kg limit but maybe it needs to be 12Kg (or so) for this line.

Thanks for your insight!

Colin

Hi Paul,

If I rub the product it polishes up reasonably. It SEEMS that the dark chocolate is so hard that there is pretty much no flexibility and as such the shellac powders but does not really create "stars" or kiss marks.

It's seemingly not coming up from below - that could have indicated water seeping through and interacting with the shellac but I don't think so. Have looked at this.

I don't have the problem to the same degree with choclate covered coffee beans but then they are much smaller and don't hit the side of the pan with the same velocity. The Capol rep experimented with speeding up the pan substantially (I run it at around 20rpm - he took it to about 40rpm) but the product started to break up and then the debris went through the batch making it worse. So he put more gum arabic on and we started again.

I THINK that part of the issue now may be that I already did a batch so there is a thin coating shellac in the pan and when the product hits that shellac coating the two surfaces together fracture.

I just feel that it's to do with the hardness and bittleness of the dark chocolate and then the shellac being harder again (isn't it??) exacerbating the problem until it simply won't work.

That said, I cannot believe that I am unique in the world with this silly problem!

Thanks again Paul

Colin

Thanks so much for your interest Paul. The RH is around 43% and the temp around 17-18 Celsius. I am not using ribs as I have one pan that has to both build and polish with. I line the pan with chocolate. I did manage to get a batch reasonably polished but as soon as I introduced the shellac it all went to pieces - from a reasonable polish to many milky dots. I don't believe it is water related as I am really careful about that.

The rep from Capol was here on Friday and is as perplexed as I am. I think I am going to have to trash a whole load of chocolate covered raspberry jellies - lots of money and lots of time. It's very worrying and I don't seem to be winning at all.

I don't think so Jeremy. I have loaded it up to 15Kg but it IS a thought in that some things are lighter than others.

With the freeze dried strawberries I had to reduce substantially. But these are heavier things - raspberry jellies, razzcherries etc.

I'll put this in mind. Am trying to do it now and I have ripped out so much hair that the room looks as though the dog has been fighting

Thanks for your message

I am having some issues with panning dark chocolate and would really appreciate some help please.

I am using Sicao 62% (I blend 70% and 53% as that is all that my supplier can supply me). I have no real issue when I do coffee beans but when I pan razz cherries, raspberry jellies or freeze dried strawberries it's a different matter.

I can do any of these with milk or white chocolate simply by leaving the pan to run and bringing the atmospheric temperature up a bit towards the end of the panning process (to around 19 degrees C). This makes the chocolate plastic and it smooths beautifully so I can polish it.

But the dark gets hard and with products that "give" a bit, the chocolate tends to crack and/or the final shellac seal (Capol 425M) cracks and chips as the chocolate in the pan and the chocolate on the product are simply too hard. As I say, milk (36%) and white are no problem. Coffee beans, being hard themselves are OK too as the chocolate and seal does not need to flex. At least I THINK this is what is happening. (The strawberries are brittle so they can't "flex" either).

So, is there a way to make the dark chocolate more flexible and "plastic"? Or do I need a better technique? (Very possible!)

Forgot to mention that I am using the same stainless steel pan for both panning and polishing as it's all that I have. Many people have two pans but that's for another lifetime I think.

Thanks in advance if anyone can help!

Hi Edward,

I think that your physics teacher was right but something makes it much harder to get to a low RH at a low temperature. I don;t really understand it but I think it has to do with RELATIVE humidity versus absolute humidity.

I'm away from my business at the moment and don't have the cocoa butter content to hand right now so will get back when I return. The polishig agent is from CAPOL (5021 as I recall) and there is also the shellac layer to consider too.

Colin

To get a good lustre on panned products I need to attain a Relative Humidity of aroung 45% and a temperature of around 17 degrees C. However the two seem to contradict each other - the lower the temperature the harder it is to reduvce the R/H.

What are others doing to achieve this? I have two dehumdifiers and they battle at the lower temperatures, cycling in and out of de-ice mode for 20 minutes in every 60 giving a see-saw of low/high RH.

The dehumidifier people say that I have to increase temperature to 18-20 degrees C but I would rather stay at the lower levels. My chocolate won't polish as well as I'd like it to.

Any thoughts please?

Thanks!

Colin

Andy, sorry but that was Union Confectionery Machinery in New York.

Jim hangs out on this forum and has a heap of great advice. That can be invaluable. They have good notes to help you through the processes too.

Colin

Andy - the time depends on what you are panning. Some things like coffee beans have to be done slowly. Other thgings like hazlenuts can be done quickly. It depends on the size of the product, "flat sides" which induce "doubles" (like coffee beans) and temperature you can get down too. If you can do it nice and cold it will be much faster. Also how much chocolate you want to add.

It takes me at least four hours - sometimes six or so - to do 15Kg of coffee beans. I can do razz cherries (try them!) in a couple of hours. But then I am NOT what you'd call an expert. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and have taught myself. I am sure that others here can help a heap to make that better but at least this is an answer of sorts.

I am getting VERY excited about the "Cool Bot" to get low temperatures. Not especially costly and worth looking at.

Colin

Andy, I think it really depends what you need to do with it. I looked at this and eventually gave it away as being too small to be useful. As I see it, it's a hobbiest tool and probably quite fun. But I'd not think commercial at all except maybe to test ideas.

I eventually purchased a "no-name" 15Kg unit on that basis that it was cheap and of a size that I could actually use for some profit. It IS now too small for me but I have learned on it and am ready to move up and I can now retire it as a polishing pan so it was a good investment.

I looked at some units from National Equipment in the USA which looked good too. I nearly bought one but was able to obtain a lower price which although doubtless of less quality did the job to now. They have a couple of small options that may be helpful to consider.

Colin

I would urgently like to know if the Krebs has a substantial air flow please? I am doing very light products (freeze dried fruit) and as they are so light I need as small an air plow as I can get.

Any thoughts please? I'm in a bind and need to purchase a gun as soon as possible.

Thanks!

Thanks for both of those bits of info Jim. At present the air flow faces into the fall but I shall change that. I am using a domestic fan so the CFM is anyone's guess. There must be a flow meter I can purchase.

My email is colin dot green at captaintaincoffee dot com dot au and I'll be very interested in you spray system.

Thanks!

Colin

Sooooo useful Guys! This is the blueprint for my new panning room! I'm getting quite excited about this!

Colin

Jim,

Thanks for that. Yes, I have a domestic fan blowing air through the pan. I have been experimenting with temperature and am mostly in the 17-29 C range although I had been advised to bring that up to make the product smoother and had gone to 22 C. That I find to be a problem so I am encouraged by your comments.

You mention the fall line and I am concerned that the size of my pan is so small that the fall is too small (less than 30cm (12 ins) so the air has little time to act on the chocolate. What do you think?

I may well take up your offer for advice in panning and am saving your email. Thanks so much. It is really hard to find experts in this area.

What a great forum!

Colin

Clay - you make a great point about the temperature IN the pan. I will measure that as although the room is reasonably cool and the correct RH (which I battle with) I suspect that heat is coming from the back of the pan. I need to look at that.

Well, there's a really useful bit of informastion! Suddenly I'm in the market for a "CoolBot" - which I had never heard of before!

Thanks for that!

Colin

Hi Jeremy,

Sounds like a great idea!

We are thinking very much on the same lines. I pan in a converted bedroom with no special insulation. However I have been planning to line it in the same way as you describe with foam panels faced with aluminium or stainless steel sheet. Also want to tile the floor. I wondered how much difference it would make and now you have inspired me!

My pan is a unit that I purchased from China. It holds 15Kg, is variable speed and cost me US$2,000 including freight from Shanghai to Sydney. I had never even seen a pan before I bought so I was trying to keep price down to see how it went. Now I need to increase the pan size and I will probably purchase an enrober too.

I am amazed at the speed at which you can pan! I mostly do coffee beans but also raspberry jellies too. More recently I have been trying the freeze-dried starwberries too which you can see I am having issues with. The coffee beans and also the jellies have flat sides and these "double" horribly. It can take me three hours or so of careful attention to get to a point where the double reduce and then two to four hours beyond that before I have completed the panning process. So your timing is mind-boggling to me!

I THINK that part of my issue (in addition to the flat surfaces) is that the small pan does not let the product drop through the air for long enough. Also I am panning at no-where near the temperatures you speak of. So your comments give me much hope that I can do much better.

How did you modify your a/c unit to yield such low temperatures? That is a neat trick!

You ask about polishing. I have spent a bit of time on this. Someone told me that the "big guys" add talc at the end to induce polish. I managed to buy some but while searching I found reference to possible problems relating to cancer. It is very close to asbestos and that has been a major problem here in Australia. So I tossed that idea pretty quickly.

I leave the product to cool overnight. Then I add gum arabic in the form of Capol 5021 which I buy in 10 liter drums. I do this in three coast and leave it to polish dry in between. Then I finally seal against moisture and to a degree, heat, with Capol 425M (which I also buy in 10 liter drums). Capol 425M is shellac disolved in alcohol.

The polishing needs to be done in low humidity - I get to around 45RH. However it's also supposed to be quite cool - about 18 degrees C or less to yield the gloss. That can be hard to achieve and there is a real trade-off between temperature and humidity. I can discuss this with you if you'd like.

So, that is it from me so far. I am keen on an enrober for two reasons - one to pre-coat the freeze-dried strawberries and second to do the same with the raspberry jellies to make them more "round" for panning. In both cases it's a pre-coat although I might do more "chocolate stuff" just enrobing. Still considering my options there.

Incidentally I THINK that I have a rather neat answer to the spraying issue too but am still looking. Will need to share that with you via email if I can't find something better.

Colin

Jeremy - may I ask what you are panning and how long it is taking you for a 30Kg batch please? I ask as I really don't know how long it should take and I wonder if my getting a larger pan could be a great idea. I suspect that it takes about the same time to pan 50Kg as it does to pan 15Kg which is why my pan yields. Thanks!

Colin

Really pleased to Jeremy. Where are you located?

Colin

I have a small pan for panning chocolate covered coffee beans. Building up by pouring choccolate takes forever and is a vast waste of time. It is also something of an art as if I go too fast I get "doubles" (where the product joins together). If I go too slow the chocolate seems to "starve" and becomes porous. I can't do a "continuous pour" as I need to stop & start a lot so as to avoid both doubles and "starvation" so I basically have to stand there for some hours as I build up.

I think that spraying could be an answer. The system needs to hold a decent amount of chocolate (min 20 liters pref 70 liters), be held at the right temperature, not make too much mess when the chocolate is atomised and probably be able to be controlled in appropriate "spurts" to give time for the product to harden between coats. It must be easy to clean too as I use several types of chocolate including chilli which has to be well cleaned out.

I have looked around for a while but have only found systems that are both large and costly (around US$35,000) with lots of pipes coming in from holding tanks. I am seeking something in the US$6,000 range max that is simple and easy to use. Selmi have a brilliant system BUT it relies on electronics from their own pan which is very expensive (around US$24,000). Besides - I already have my own 15Kg output pan (which cost me less than US$2,000 delivered).

I am in Australia but am pleased to buy from anywhere.

Any thoughts would be really welcome!

Thanks!

Colin

Edward,

Molded shell? This is getting outside of my knowledge. You mean that I MAKE the shell, fill it with chocolate, drop in the fruit and then pan?

Sounds like an interesting direction to take! The fruit can vary in size substantially. Some are quite small and others quite large and the chocolate layer should be as thin as possible both for economics and for enjoyment. Maybe the panning process will collapse the shell around the fruit a bit like heat shrink wrapping? You have me thinking!

Colin

Hi Ramon,

Thanks for that. I am working with freeze-dried product so not a drop of water in the equation. Water makes chocolate seize so I avoid any sniff of it.

As you say the raspberries are made of many small pieces of fruit and as such are especially fragile.I do beleiev that and enrober will fix the proble as it is non-impact as opposed to a pan that bashes the heck out of the product.

Thanks for your thoughts

Colin

Thanks for the thought Jeremy. The moisture could be handled with appropriate filters. But the chocolate setting inside the spray head is a worry! I have researched spraying quite a bit and what is really needed as I understand it, is not so much a "spray" as a "stream" pushed out with compressed air. The spray itself, when it can work, is pretty messy and you geta chocolated coated room. However, that is second-hand and I am very much trying to learn.

In fact Selmi have a nice unit - but it runs on electronics that are buried in their pan which is not cost-justifyable for me.

Colin

Thinking it through the spray would not have much capacity hence choc thickness for a decent load and it would also cool quickly so the chocolate would lose temper. Not sure how vital the latter is given that I'll pan anyway where the chocolate tempers due to agitation. Just thoughs. The reversible pump/auger could be important if I am changing chocolate? Dark/Milk/White? I have a domestic power supply but there are devices that "make" 3 phase power if needed I am told.

Gee - you are an innovative man Clay! I wonder now if this could be my entry point. I believe that even if I can enrobe I will also need to pan to get that lovely round shape and thickness of chocolate. The spray option is cheap enough to try and discard if it's a problem. I have responded back to Giuseppe so let's see what he says.

I do wonder if there would be enough chocolate if I sprayed and if it would be a very slow process. Have to think on that!

You mentioned earlier about there being a reversal option on the Prima for an additional payment. Why would one want to reverse the process? Just so I understand!

Thanks again for your help

Colin

Thanks for the thought Edward. My pan is 15Kg (about 33lb) and although I have to do a deal less when doing the strawberries it's still about 8Kg - and indeed I want to buy a bigger pan to do a lot more. The pan at that size crashes the product down quite hard and it breaks and/or the chocolate breaks off and the product beneath starts to come away too. That is not the same issue on a very small pan.

I only temper the couverture to apply it to the first layer - the "quasi-enrobed" layer which is what I am trying to find a cure for. The final layer tempers itself with the movement of the chocoate - at least so I understand it. I'm learning REALLY fast!

I do like your thought on the a/c with the mask! I have tried that myself and I'm going to try again. Last time I didn't have a large enough pipe and the air didn't get through and it was not cold enough either (rated at 18 degrees C although it gets colder than that).

Now I am battling relative humidity too which seems to be a trade-off between temperature and R/H. Aaaahhhhh!!!! Needs to be low to get a decent polish on the panned product. I mention this as where I live the humidty is too high to take it into the hallway.

You are clearly an innovative person! Love your thinking!

Thanks for your help

Colin

Hi Clay,

You have emailed me too but I'll comment here in case it helps others too.

I think that the strawberries and raspberries will be OK on a belt - they are large enough but I will measure and respond.

You HAVE hit a nerve on the spraying process too as I'd like to be able to spray into my coating pan. But spraying units seem to be about $35,000! Is there a (MUCH) less costly way to you know?

Now you have me thinking about paint sraying systems from the hardware store. Wonder if that would work? Any thoughts please?

Thanks!

Colin

Does anyone have thoughts on "manually enrobing" product please?

I am panning freeze dried strawberries and I'd like to do raspberries and too and they are very fragile. Simply panning does not work - the fruit breaks up and it's a mess.

I have made a batch of the strawberries and they are sensational and I'd like to do the raspberries too. The way I did the strawberries was to temper some milk chocolate and pour the chocolate through the fruit while mixing it around. Then placing it all on trays. Then I pan the resultant product when the chocolate is hard. The "enrobing" takes AGES to do and is not really commercially viable (I sell it in markets). Also if I leave a spot "unenrobed" that breaks apart in the pan - messy messy.

The above does not work for the raspberries as they are even more fragile.

So I'd like to enrobe - but the eqipment is really costly (I have asked about machines in another forum so maybe I'll get some guideance there too).

So I am wondering if there is a better way that someone might know of please?

Thanks Guyz 'n Girlz!

Colin

So cool to hear Antonino! I too am considering three phase. I'm planning to use a three phase converter which plugs into single phase.

I'll be watching out for your post. Good luck with it all!

Colin

Antonino! I am bursting to know how you went with your Unica Enrober! Do tell! Colin

How exciting Antonino! I will be VERY interested in your thoughts!

Colin

Thanks Antonino. I would REALLY appreciate that!

Do you know when you will receive the systems?

Colin

Antonio, this I find REALLY interesting! Which FBM have you ordreed? And am I right in reading that you bought it as, as a result of your prior experiences, you deemed it to be straight-forward, fast to set up and easy to use?

Your tale of the 2000 truffles is a little of what I am a little concerned about. That I may not be able to do quantity.

I'd really like to hear how you go once it arrives and you use it please.

Thanks for that!

Colin

David, these are the things that worry me. I am semi-blind with this as I don't know enrobers and I have to imagine things that can be a problem. So your thoughts are really helpful. I do need something that is easy in all points including cleaning, set-up, no especially finicky bits such as you describe with the wax paper feed. And as there will be no-one to show me (although maybe I can find a set-up near me with a friendly owner) I'll needto be able to "get it" reasonably quickly.

Thanks!

Colin

Thanks for this Cheebs. I am indeed looking at the Hilliard 6 inch enrober. However it strikes me that it may be TOO small. I bought a small pan and a few months later it is too small for my increasing needs, although it was the right decision overall. I'll certainly take your thoughts on board although I'm leaning towards the Prima.

Colin

Thanks Andy! I'll certainly take that on board! A supplier here told me that installing one would cause me lots of problems and I'm not sure what he meant about that! Maybe I can indeed find someone local with one that I can visit. I am really interested in the Prima and I think there are a couple near me.

Colin

Thanks for this Clay. I do have your email too and will respond. I didn't know that you represented FBM. I can see that I need to read "The Chocolate Life" with a LOT more care!

Colin

It's THEIR recipe and it's you that does not know what it is. However working it out is not really too hard.

Simply tasting will tell many people what the receipe is. I can pretty much do that with many products. I also used to work in a laboratory where we used to grab competitor products and "backwards engineer" them. In essence take them apart and measure them physically and chemically.

Colin

These look really good. They may have other issues though depending on where you live. I am in Australia and Australia Post is incredibly expensive AND they weigh pretty much everything. Hence I have to watch every gram (ounce?). A 500gm (about a pound) prepaid satchel is $8:25 normal post or $9.55 "Express Post") and the next size up (no pack options in the middle) is 3Kg (about 6.6 pounds). If they catch you out there is an "administration fee" plus the extra to pay. Hence cooling gels are pretty much out of the question for smaller items.

Colin

Here in Sydney we have had some really hot weather of late (some really cold days with a lot of rain too - pretty weird really).

Of course I want to be able to mail chocolate out and don't want people put off buying! So with this thread in mind I wrote up what I actually DO when I mail chocolate and made it into a page on my web site.

As The Chocolate Life members in the US and Europe are now heading towards warmer weather again (yes - really - even if looking at snow doesn't bring "hot" to mind yet) some of you might be able to use this, and now is surely a good idea to get ready!

Hope this is useful to some of you!

www.captaincoffee.com.au/delivery-info/hot-weather-shipping.shtml

Colin