Chocolate Spraying

Colin Green
@colin-green
06/27/12 06:43:48PM
84 posts

I have a small pan for panning chocolate covered coffee beans. Building up by pouring choccolate takes forever and is a vast waste of time. It is also something of an art as if I go too fast I get "doubles" (where the product joins together). If I go too slow the chocolate seems to "starve" and becomes porous. I can't do a "continuous pour" as I need to stop & start a lot so as to avoid both doubles and "starvation" so I basically have to stand there for some hours as I build up.

I think that spraying could be an answer. The system needs to hold a decent amount of chocolate (min 20 liters pref 70 liters), be held at the right temperature, not make too much mess when the chocolate is atomised and probably be able to be controlled in appropriate "spurts" to give time for the product to harden between coats. It must be easy to clean too as I use several types of chocolate including chilli which has to be well cleaned out.

I have looked around for a while but have only found systems that are both large and costly (around US$35,000) with lots of pipes coming in from holding tanks. I am seeking something in the US$6,000 range max that is simple and easy to use. Selmi have a brilliant system BUT it relies on electronics from their own pan which is very expensive (around US$24,000). Besides - I already have my own 15Kg output pan (which cost me less than US$2,000 delivered).

I am in Australia but am pleased to buy from anywhere.

Any thoughts would be really welcome!

Thanks!

Colin


updated by @colin-green: 04/10/15 04:11:42AM
Jeremy Rushane
@jeremy-rushane
06/28/12 01:10:05AM
20 posts

Colin...

let me know what you find out. I also am in the same situation. I am panning about 30kg batches using a 50kg chocolate melter and hand pouring all of it.

Jeremy

Colin Green
@colin-green
06/28/12 01:54:06AM
84 posts

Really pleased to Jeremy. Where are you located?

Colin :-)

Colin Green
@colin-green
06/28/12 03:27:51AM
84 posts

Jeremy - may I ask what you are panning and how long it is taking you for a 30Kg batch please? I ask as I really don't know how long it should take and I wonder if my getting a larger pan could be a great idea. I suspect that it takes about the same time to pan 50Kg as it does to pan 15Kg which is why my pan yields. Thanks!

Colin

Jeremy Rushane
@jeremy-rushane
06/28/12 02:07:28PM
20 posts

Colin...

I'm panning everything I can! I find it addicting and meditative. I have only worked with dried fruit and solid centers and I am not up against the problem you are facing with your fragile berries.

Like I said before.... I am hand pouring 30kg batches of nuts or dried fruits and my build up time takes a little under an hour. Its a slow start trying to keep from getting doubles. but I don't try to fix all the doubles. I have kind of decided that 5% doubles is to be excepted. The nice thing is that doubles are larger and will remain on top of the product so you can always spot them.

I built my own panning room which I like to work in at about 50f - 55f (10c - 12c) It is basically a walk inrefrigeratorand makes all the difference in build up time. I framed the walls andceilingand insulated them with High density foam panels (the same type you would find in a walk in fridge or freezer... installed this normal home gradeAC Unitand tricked the AC unit into pushing its cooling power much lower thanadvertised. I can get my panning room to about 38f (3c) in about a 40 mins. (too cold to work in even in a down jacket).

Spraying would save me that hour of standing over the pan if I could hook a sprayer up to sprayintermittently.

I would like to start a discussion with you on polishing. Are you getting a brilliant shine every time? Are you using a glazing compound of some sort? I can polish to a brilliant shine but sometimes it takes the product HOURS in the pan to get that shine. I have also polished in less than 30 minutes a few times. I would like to put our brains together and see if I can get this dialed into a science.

-Jeremy

Colin Green
@colin-green
06/28/12 07:36:47PM
84 posts

Hi Jeremy,

Sounds like a great idea!

We are thinking very much on the same lines. I pan in a converted bedroom with no special insulation. However I have been planning to line it in the same way as you describe with foam panels faced with aluminium or stainless steel sheet. Also want to tile the floor. I wondered how much difference it would make and now you have inspired me!

My pan is a unit that I purchased from China. It holds 15Kg, is variable speed and cost me US$2,000 including freight from Shanghai to Sydney. I had never even seen a pan before I bought so I was trying to keep price down to see how it went. Now I need to increase the pan size and I will probably purchase an enrober too.

I am amazed at the speed at which you can pan! I mostly do coffee beans but also raspberry jellies too. More recently I have been trying the freeze-dried starwberries too which you can see I am having issues with. The coffee beans and also the jellies have flat sides and these "double" horribly. It can take me three hours or so of careful attention to get to a point where the double reduce and then two to four hours beyond that before I have completed the panning process. So your timing is mind-boggling to me!

I THINK that part of my issue (in addition to the flat surfaces) is that the small pan does not let the product drop through the air for long enough. Also I am panning at no-where near the temperatures you speak of. So your comments give me much hope that I can do much better.

How did you modify your a/c unit to yield such low temperatures? That is a neat trick!

You ask about polishing. I have spent a bit of time on this. Someone told me that the "big guys" add talc at the end to induce polish. I managed to buy some but while searching I found reference to possible problems relating to cancer. It is very close to asbestos and that has been a major problem here in Australia. So I tossed that idea pretty quickly.

I leave the product to cool overnight. Then I add gum arabic in the form of Capol 5021 which I buy in 10 liter drums. I do this in three coast and leave it to polish dry in between. Then I finally seal against moisture and to a degree, heat, with Capol 425M (which I also buy in 10 liter drums). Capol 425M is shellac disolved in alcohol.

The polishing needs to be done in low humidity - I get to around 45RH. However it's also supposed to be quite cool - about 18 degrees C or less to yield the gloss. That can be hard to achieve and there is a real trade-off between temperature and humidity. I can discuss this with you if you'd like.

So, that is it from me so far. I am keen on an enrober for two reasons - one to pre-coat the freeze-dried strawberries and second to do the same with the raspberry jellies to make them more "round" for panning. In both cases it's a pre-coat although I might do more "chocolate stuff" just enrobing. Still considering my options there.

Incidentally I THINK that I have a rather neat answer to the spraying issue too but am still looking. Will need to share that with you via email if I can't find something better.

Colin :-)

antonino allegra
@antonino-allegra
06/29/12 02:31:14PM
143 posts
Hi guys,i'm getting a panning machine to "test" in the next weeks and i would be in the same situation.I have a deep pastry back ground and i used to spray a lot of chocolate to decorate cakes.What about a simple spray gun? At my pastry lab we used to have a normal spray gun bought at the hardware store:electric and easy to use. also a air compressed air gun could work, no?If our testing machine works, and i like to do panning, i am looking into the Selmi one or a Rollermac, both italian and very cool looking at their specs.As soon as i get my machine i will also start to update my R&D on panninig!CheersAntonino
Clay Gordon
@clay
06/29/12 03:58:45PM
1,680 posts

Jeremy:

Did you use a CoolBot to be able to get the temperature of the room below the lowest set point of the air conditioner? I am using one on a project in New York right now. There are hugely cost effective.

:: Clay




--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
clay - http://www.thechocolatelife.com/clay/
Jeremy Rushane
@jeremy-rushane
06/30/12 01:24:43AM
20 posts

clay...

one of the best ways to make money, is to save money you don't have to spend. I build my own cutting wheels for a fraction of the cost of purchasing new. I built my first pan capable of about 10 pound batches which mounts to the front of a kitchen aid mixer (that drive shaft is great). I got the idea from a guy who had built a taffy puller using a kitchen aid front drive. I built my second pan capable of 65-70 pounds from a cement mixer and a hand pounded Stainless drum from India. (Karol Baugh neighborhood in Delhi is a great place you can have anything you want built.) I built my web application which emails me when orders come in, tracks my inventory and manages my spending... my computer tells me what I have to make today so that I never run my shelves empty and my product is always fresh. (thank you .NET and Visual Studio for the tools to do that)((that was about a $8,000 web app at no more cost than my own time)).

My point.......

Earn more money buy spending less.

This is why I use a coolbot.

The cool bot is a great tool and with a properly insulated room it is cost efective to use them as a full time walk in fridge. A panning room doesn't even really need to be insulated because you are only running the ac for short bursts of time while you are in there.

I know people who have been tricking ac units using heaters hooked up to thermostats for years. The cool bot is just the same concept (less that $50 worth of parts from your local hardware store) wrapped up in a pretty package.

As for me.... I decided to go with the cool bot rather than tinkering around with parts. I spent the $300 and hooked the whole thing up in less than two hours. THAT INCLUDES....

-cutting a hole in the wall for the ac unit

-installing a new breaker in my panel and running 220 for the ac unit

-installing the ac unit

-hooking up the cool bot and watching the temp in my panning room fall FAST

if you wat to use it for cold storage, a little bit of advice....

INSULATE THE FLOOR! I have had friendscompletelyrebuild their cool rooms because they didn't properly insulate thefloor

Jeremy Rushane
@jeremy-rushane
06/30/12 01:36:31AM
20 posts

does the spray head heat up on the electric spray gun? Compressed air moving through the head of a spray gun comes very close to freezing. Thisseizesthe chocolate making you use choice words and starts you looking over your shoulder to make sure no children are present.

I would love to have more info on that electric spray gun and the makeup of the parts....

SS?

Is the quality suitable for food????

Why doesn't the chocolate set up in the spray head?

Do you happen to have video or can you get some????

You might be on to some new way to save thousands if not hundreds if this is food grade and works.

Colin Green
@colin-green
06/30/12 07:00:04AM
84 posts

Well, there's a really useful bit of informastion! Suddenly I'm in the market for a "CoolBot" - which I had never heard of before!

Thanks for that!

Colin

Jim Greenberg
@jim-greenberg
06/30/12 10:46:48AM
34 posts

Hi, Colin. Forgive me for asking, but are you using a fan to deliver cool air into the pan during the engrossing stage? If not, then you will never be able to control the process of coverage or drying. Double occur when excessive amounts of chocolate settle in the deadzone area which is the fall line of the cascading motion create once the chocolate is forst applied and coverage/drying begin.

If you are using a fan, then the problem may be that the air flow volume is too low - you need to have enough air to evacuate the volume of the pan everything 3-4 seconds and also the air must be in the range of 17-20C. Since the fan is drawing make up air from the room in which it sits, the humidity and temperature in your panning room should be 50% RH or so and 17-20C.

If you need more help just let me know at jim@unionmachinery.com

Thanks,

Jim




--
Jim Greenberg, Co-President
Union Confectionery Machinery Company
Jim@unionmachinery.com
www.unionmachinery.com
Clay Gordon
@clay
06/30/12 11:02:37AM
1,680 posts

Colin:

www.storeitcold.com. And they offer free (slow) shipping to Australia!

I've known about these since early 2007 when I saw one working at Cotton Tree Lodge in Belize. The project I am working on now is the first time I get to use one in practice, I am taking a room down to 55F (13C) for crystallization and storage.

I am insulating the (new construction) room I am using with double layers of mylar/bubble/mylar building insulation with 100mm dead air space in between (standard stud walls).




--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
clay - http://www.thechocolatelife.com/clay/
Clay Gordon
@clay
06/30/12 11:05:31AM
1,680 posts

Jim:

This is great advice and one of the things I think people overlook. Not only does the room need to be the right temperature but the airflow into the pan also needs to be considered to set the chocolate properly, keeping in mind that the chocolate does not actually need to be in temper for use in panning.

:: Clay




--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
clay - http://www.thechocolatelife.com/clay/
Jeremy Rushane
@jeremy-rushane
06/30/12 11:17:07AM
20 posts
Colin.www.storeitcold.com
Jim Greenberg
@jim-greenberg
06/30/12 11:22:43AM
34 posts

I can answer any and all questions about panning, as we sell both new and used table top and commerical sized pans plus a full range of chocolate melting equipment. I also had my own panning company a few moons ago.

Send on specific questions and I will be happy to address machinery, procedural and supply questions.

Jim




--
Jim Greenberg, Co-President
Union Confectionery Machinery Company
Jim@unionmachinery.com
www.unionmachinery.com
Colin Green
@colin-green
06/30/12 06:54:55PM
84 posts

Jim,

Thanks for that. Yes, I have a domestic fan blowing air through the pan. I have been experimenting with temperature and am mostly in the 17-29 C range although I had been advised to bring that up to make the product smoother and had gone to 22 C. That I find to be a problem so I am encouraged by your comments.

You mention the fall line and I am concerned that the size of my pan is so small that the fall is too small (less than 30cm (12 ins) so the air has little time to act on the chocolate. What do you think?

I may well take up your offer for advice in panning and am saving your email. Thanks so much. It is really hard to find experts in this area.

What a great forum! :-)

Colin

Clay - you make a great point about the temperature IN the pan. I will measure that as although the room is reasonably cool and the correct RH (which I battle with) I suspect that heat is coming from the back of the pan. I need to look at that.

Colin Green
@colin-green
06/30/12 06:57:25PM
84 posts

Sooooo useful Guys! This is the blueprint for my new panning room! I'm getting quite excited about this!

Colin

antonino allegra
@antonino-allegra
07/01/12 05:07:29AM
143 posts

T

Jim Greenberg
@jim-greenberg
07/01/12 11:17:05AM
34 posts

The size of the pan does not affect the fall line but if you overload the pan that can be detrimental.

Go to 20C on the air, make sure that the air flow faces toward the side of the pan opposite the fall line and also be certain you have enough CFM.

Jim




--
Jim Greenberg, Co-President
Union Confectionery Machinery Company
Jim@unionmachinery.com
www.unionmachinery.com
Jim Greenberg
@jim-greenberg
07/01/12 11:19:32AM
34 posts

We sell a small pneumatic spray gun with tank and a self cleaning nozzle that has a pin that goes in and out to clear the plug that inevitably develops.

I do not have the info set up as a link so if you want details pls send me your email address thanks.

Jim




--
Jim Greenberg, Co-President
Union Confectionery Machinery Company
Jim@unionmachinery.com
www.unionmachinery.com

updated by @jim-greenberg: 09/11/15 11:44:34AM
Jeremy Rushane
@jeremy-rushane
07/01/12 11:28:45AM
20 posts
JimI am interested in info in thatpneumatic spray gunJeremyJrushane@gmail.com
Colin Green
@colin-green
07/01/12 06:29:28PM
84 posts

Thanks for both of those bits of info Jim. At present the air flow faces into the fall but I shall change that. I am using a domestic fan so the CFM is anyone's guess. There must be a flow meter I can purchase.

My email is colin dot green at captaintaincoffee dot com dot au and I'll be very interested in you spray system.

Thanks!

Colin

Krebs Switzerland
@krebs-switzerland
09/11/12 06:04:10PM
7 posts

Hi all, our electric spray guns are the only food-approved ones available and are good for liquid chocolate and other materials such as jam, marinades etc. There are different nozzle sizes depending on the viscosity of liquid being applied, and the surface are requiring covering.

Further info and Youtube demo videos on our website via this linkand we look forward to helping your requirements.

Colin Green
@colin-green
09/11/12 07:35:47PM
84 posts

I would urgently like to know if the Krebs has a substantial air flow please? I am doing very light products (freeze dried fruit) and as they are so light I need as small an air plow as I can get.

Any thoughts please? I'm in a bind and need to purchase a gun as soon as possible.

Thanks!

Krebs Switzerland
@krebs-switzerland
09/12/12 07:04:42AM
7 posts

Hi Colin,

I replied to you on the other thread- but yes, the material flow can be slowed right down to a minimum by using the food gun's power control knob.

Krebs Switzerland Electric Food Spray Guns

KREA Swiss Food Equipment
@krea-swiss-food-equipment
07/22/14 10:03:51AM
14 posts

Hi Jeremy

To answer your questions- most guns are paint guns... i) they cool the chocolate down quickly... and the beta crystals form much quicker in smaller, cooler areas like nozzles and springs etc. causing blockages ii) Rarely do they use food grade materials (plastics / metals etc.).

We have a few food spray gunsthat you can check out for using with chocolate- one with heating & insulation. Here is a video of thehotCHOC heated chocolate sprayer.

Or you can stick with a air brush and hair dryer if you are working for very short periods- sometimes inconvenience but gives a nice shine.

Jim Greenberg
@jim-greenberg
07/22/14 10:07:17AM
34 posts

If the spray gun and the head are not jacketed for warm water flow then the gun will NOT work.

The tube, head and any connections must have 105-108F water running constantly to avoid crystallization. Remember you do not want to use tempered chocolate when panning or you will never achieve the yield and coverage. By heating the spray gun you insure a proper delivery temp.

Jim Greenberg, President
Union Confectionery Machinery Company




--
Jim Greenberg, Co-President
Union Confectionery Machinery Company
Jim@unionmachinery.com
www.unionmachinery.com
Jim Greenberg
@jim-greenberg
07/22/14 10:09:20AM
34 posts

Also - you need 80 PSI to atomize a fat-based material such as chocolate so the viscosity must be held at a constant (which is determined by fat content and usage temp).

Jim




--
Jim Greenberg, Co-President
Union Confectionery Machinery Company
Jim@unionmachinery.com
www.unionmachinery.com
Jim Greenberg
@jim-greenberg
07/22/14 10:14:32AM
34 posts

The sprayer is not the answer. Colin.

Here is a greattrick - get a wheel type machine like a JKV and cut a small piece of PVC pipe on a bias - 45 degree angle - and then rig the PVC into the mouth of the pan and let the wheel feed into it. The pipe should be 1" ID. You can walk away and let the chocolate flow freely. Now, that said, you must have proper air conditions as follows:

RH = 50% or <

Air Temp - 60F degrees is optimal

Air Flow - for a pan your size 100 CFM will work

If you deliver the air too cold or too fast the chocolate will set up too quickly causing poor flow. If you deliver an inadequate supply of air or the air is too warm you will get doubles and triples all day long.

Jim




--
Jim Greenberg, Co-President
Union Confectionery Machinery Company
Jim@unionmachinery.com
www.unionmachinery.com
Jim Greenberg
@jim-greenberg
07/22/14 10:15:27AM
34 posts

Colin - you know you can email me anytime

Jim at unionmachinery dot com




--
Jim Greenberg, Co-President
Union Confectionery Machinery Company
Jim@unionmachinery.com
www.unionmachinery.com
KREA Swiss Food Equipment
@krea-swiss-food-equipment
07/22/14 10:50:08AM
14 posts

Hi Jim, the enquiry was 2 years old but I like your passion :-)

btw- we use airless and have a heated handheld version. We use a smaller and very different technology to yours which might compliment your product portfolio.

Jim Greenberg
@jim-greenberg
07/22/14 10:52:33AM
34 posts

Yes I have been in discussion with Colin for a few years.

We do not build new sprayers we sell them as brokers. Can you send me literature on yours and also advise if yours can supply pans from 16" diameter up to 42"?

Thanks,

Jim




--
Jim Greenberg, Co-President
Union Confectionery Machinery Company
Jim@unionmachinery.com
www.unionmachinery.com
jean45
@jean45
03/31/16 02:57:05AM
1 posts

These electric guns can be used to spray on large pans?

KREA Swiss Food Equipment
@krea-swiss-food-equipment
04/18/16 02:32:06AM
14 posts

Hello Jean,

Yes the multiSPRAY and volumeSPRAY can be used to spray on large pans, avoiding waste of material and saving time, compared to brushing or other methods.

Our volumeSPRAY also comes with a suction tube extension, that can provide a direct feed from a large floor container.

Hope this helps but if you have any further questions, just let me know.

Kind regards,

KREA Swiss


updated by @krea-swiss-food-equipment: 07/08/16 01:55:58PM

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