This discussion saw no activity for several months until a new member (a Xocai rep) posted, apparently without reading the discussion or the Guidelines. I am closing this discussion to further replies.


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@DiscoverChoc

You may find out more info on xocai chocolate at my website http://mxi.myvoffice.com/randypipkin/ . Have a great day.Randy

Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread. I have not been online since Tuesday morning (it is now Saturday afternoon) and I did not witness this thread unfold. Reading it demonstrates the importance of maintaining a balance and openness that creates an environment where members feel comfortable sharing what they know. Also, by (for the most part) avoiding issues of style, tone, and personality, I think that this thread on Xocai has been the most informative and productive of all the discussions so far.I just want to let everyone know how proud I am to have played a part in fostering the growth of this community. You make it all worthwhile for me.:: Clay


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@DiscoverChoc

Melissa,In the 15 years of cacau farming and production I have delivered several hundred tons of fermented, dried, cacau beans. Although I have witnessed many processes utilized, I am unable to find one that fits the description "cold pressed unproccesed and in is naturalest form possible". In addition, conversations with other producers and chocolate manufacturers in our region are unable to recognize the process.Please let me know who and where this process is applied.I will not speak to blueberries as we are not fortunate enough to grow them in my region of Brasil, BUT.....in the collection, pod opening and transport of cacau beans, there are many inoculations made of things "unhealthy." Since the beans are "in is naturalest form possible", I'm assuming the are not systematically fermented or dried. What do you do with this slurry of beans and liquor now?One other item worth mentioning...Acai is notorious for housing the "charga beetle", and if the acai is also "in is naturalest form possible", the riisk of developing a serious heart disease is highly possible. This disease causes the heart to enlarge until death occurs. There is no known cure.I'm for healthy lifestyles, but, that includes caution with regard to what is consumed.I will be waiting for more details regarding "who" and "where" of the referenced procedures.

Further to my note above, the following publication from the American Public Health Association, states that "...it is absolutely necessary to handle cocoa beans as a contaminated raw material."In all I was able to read over 50 different publications by (apparent) accredited industry professionals, who more or less all said the same thing: Cocoa beans have salmonella on them.What I also read which was disturbing too, was that the fat in the cocoa bean acted as an insulator for the bacteria, and allowed it to survive longer in the chocolate, and through higher refining and conching temperatures. Two publications noted temperatures in excess of 100 degrees Celcius. Because of the insulating effect, it also took less bacteria to cause infection.Here's a link for you to read for yourself: http://books.google.com/books?id=nz851G-cZf0C&pg=PA557&lpg=... As I stated before: I wouldn't touch chocolate made from raw or unroasted cocoa beans with a ten foot pole. I'm sure none of the health industry professionals I've referenced here would either.Brad

Regarding Salmonella and cocoa beans, please see the following link. It refers to page 474/475 of a book called "Microbial Ecology of Food Commodities" and is written by the International Commission on Microbiological Specifications For Foods.It states that the presence of salmonella in raw cocoa beans is unavoidable, a fact confirmed by the regular detection in environmental samples taken from the raw bean storage and handling areas.The article also goes on to state that roasting or boiling is the only way to eliminate salmonella, and that most often salmonella contamination after roasting is because of something I mentioned before - cross contamination.This is one of the books used by HACCP professionals, and as you will see also references many other industry accepted publications, including Minifie - a commonly accepted bible for making chocolate. http://books.google.com/books?id=Yy_oBodctoIC&pg=PA474&lpg=... Happy Reading Everyone.Brad

I don't know why but it won't let me reply to you directly, but I'm responding to this;Samantha;You were so busy unneccessarily defending yourself, you forgot to add in my thanks to your corrective post about cocoa alkalization.Actually.... I thanked you TWICE in the same post for two different things.Wow..... I DID get the picture in Blue Ray Hi-Def. The picture is that you have some serious issues.I hope you resolve them some day, and truly wish you the best in all your endeavors.Respectfully,BradBrad~ We can all see that you thanked Sam twice and that it was very sarcastic and condescending. This last post is the second time you told her to get over her 'issues'. As far as I can tell you seem to be the only one with issues here. Sam KNOWS what she is talking about on this topic and it's ridiculous to argue about third world cocoa production with her, someone who has much more experience than you. How many times have you visited the plantations you buy your beans from? I know you claim that you're "an expert in the field' but you still have a lot to learn.I've also noticed you only seem to take the arrogant tone and make snide "I'm better than you" comments when debating with women. Does it make you feel good to put us women in our place? Maybe you just don't see how the way you write thing looks to everyone else, or maybe you're just a bully with a huge inferiority complex, I've wondered this for a while (honestly, I can't imagine anyone being that mean all the time).This may be one of the most condescending comments I have ever read from you (notice it's to a woman also?), it seems to fit this very well. "One last thing (I know I said that before, but I get the impression Gwen Brad, that your business is quite small. Hopefully you can use this tip to your benefit):" Listen and learn from others that have the knowledge to teach you. The world is not out to get you, you don't have to keep fighting everyone, and believe it or not, you're NOT always right.I know you'll try to make me regret posting this..... I'm not going to argue with you, I've said my piece and I'm done.Andrea

Samantha;You were so busy unneccessarily defending yourself, you forgot to add in my thanks to your corrective post about cocoa alkalization.Actually.... I thanked you TWICE in the same post for two different things.Wow..... I DID get the picture in Blue Ray Hi-Def. The picture is that you have some serious issues.I hope you resolve them some day, and truly wish you the best in all your endeavors.Respectfully,Brad

The cocoa beans freshly harvested have the highest antioxidant levels. Once the beans are fermented they lose much of their antioxidants, and alkali treatment reduces it even further. Many dark chocolates are alkalized to reduce harshness. Some companies have used more unfermented beans, either for the higher AOX levels or because the beans are cheaper, but they don't taste much like chocolate.

Samantha;This is EXACTLY what a forum like this is for! You finally got it!Thank you for sharing and correcting what I knew about alkalization of cocoa.As far as "baiting" the Xocai rep... Nobody has ever given me a clear definition of cold processing - either here or on another forum. If someone is going to go online and make claims such as the Xocai rep has, maybe they should be able to help people understand the basis of the claim. If I'm curious, I'm sure others are too.Thanks again for correcting me without attacking me.Brad.

You're exactly correct that pathogens such as Ecoli and Salmonella are also rampant in first world countries.However it's interesting to note, that all cocoa beans we import from both Venezuela and Brazil, require phytosanitary certificates prior to leaving the countries. The samples tested must pass minimum pathogen requirements.If there wasn't an issue with regard to pathogens, why would these countries be so particular about requiring such certification???Just something to chew on there...One can never be too cautious when it comes to food and public safety.As far as sitting around complaining that our suppliers are dirty... well... I'm not complaining, I'm certainly not sitting around, and you should let go of whatever issues you have, and stop trying to turn a forum of sharing information and thoughts into a personal attack. Nobody's out to get you.I regard the third world as the root of all food borne illness????Yeah... Right.Give me a break.Brad.

Samantha;Thanks for the information. I'm not trying to scare people at all. Salmonella and ecoli are real, and potentially business crippling concerns.When I first got into the business, two of my mentors (one was head of research and development for Cargill Foods, and the other worked for Lindt for almost 25 years setting up and supervising factories for them) impressed upon me in no uncertain terms the dangers of raw food products from third world countries. Those food products included cocoa beans.Case In Point: There was a HUGE recall of chocolate products last year from a (I think it was) Hershey's plant as salmonella was discovered in their end confections. I can't remember the exact date, but the plant had to be shut down, and almost their entire production line disassembled to clean, and sanitize the equipment. ...No small task at all, and at a cost of millions of dollars to that company.For those of us in North America who travel to places such as Mexico and other third world locations, we have it drilled into us, "DON'T DRINK THE WATER." Why? because it can make us sick. (Ecoli and Salmonella are just a few pathogens on the list). Cocoa beans grown and processed in the same countries carry the same risk. To think anything different and to not take significant precautions, is in my opion playing a very foolish game of russian roulette with your business.Cross contamination is huge in businesses that handle food. For example: Walk by a sack of cocoa beans and lean against the sack, putting your hands on the sack picks up a bug. Then, without even thinking of it, make a buttercream truffle center. You've just transferred pathogens from the sack to every tool you touch, including most likely the nice, wet, buttercream "incubator".As far as the message being disguised as spam... Well... If it is or isn't we're now learning about chocolate and pathogens.

And not very well 'disguised' either. As I understand it the Xocia branded chocolate is one of those pyramid type companies, just like Pampered Chef or Avon....so people have an interest in promoting it for their advantage. Are any of the claims they make true at all?By the way, I tried a raw chocolate bar the other day (can't remember the name) and can honestly say I will never ever ever eat another raw bar again. BLAH!Andrea

It may be just me, but the way this post is written reeks of disguised "spam."

Melissa;You seem very "matter of fact" knowledgeable about xocia...Given that we're all here to learn, maybe you can explain to all of us exactly what the difference between hot compressing and cold compressing chocolate is, what the temperatures are that cause the nutritional loss, and how to avoid taking the nutritional value of the chocolate some of us actually make.I also have a second question: Seeing that cocoa beans come from 3 world countries where diseases like Salmonella, ecoli, and dissentary run rampant, how are the significant risks of contracting one of these illnesses eliminated from the beans, if they are "cold processed, and in their naturalest" form???Inquiring minds want to know!

This chocolate has a high level of antixodents in it. It is extremely healthy for you. Yeah I know all chocolate is but what most people do not know is when you process chocolate, they do it through hot compresses and that takes most of the nutritional value out of it. So you are getting some value but not what you could be getting. This chocolate is cold pressed unproccesed and in is naturalest form possible. Then they add acai berries and blue berries making this chocolate an antixodent super treat. With orac values that are extremly high. It is very healty for you; I myself consume it daily and have noticed alot of changes in my health and I am very glad i replaced my unhealth chocolate with these
updated by @melissa-beaver: 04/16/15 09:52:05