Raw chocolate-- what is it really?

Lemm Huang
@lemm-huang
12/13/08 10:35:31AM
13 posts
I just want to make sure that I understand what is going on about chocolate flavors.In another thread Clay mentions that there are inherent flavors in the bean before fermentation. What are these flavors?Then Samantha/Sam (By the way what do you prefer to be called by?) said that you'll get some of the chocolate flavors during fermentation where the broken down sugars react with the broken down proteins.The Steve said that there is no chocolate flavor unless there is no fermentation implying that there will be some after fermentation as Samantha pointed out.Finally you said that there is no chocolate flavor unless there is a minimum of roasting.Which one is it?
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
12/14/08 01:08:11AM
116 posts
This is a very complex issue, with many complex answers all stemming from the fact that chocolate IS alchemy and that cacao is probably the most complex plant chemistry to be found perhaps on all of earth. Bottom line is that there is no "right or wrong" answer. There are infinite shades of grey!How do you define "chocolate flavor" first of all! I am at shows all the time placing 20 different recipes of chocolate in peoples mouths all the time...people's pallates vary so much, that that itself is cause for concern in trying to "define" a chocolate flavor...all you can talk about is averages and generalities. Of course, the raw bean has some chocolate flavor, but some would say that that is not the real flavor of chocolate...get what I mean? Ultimately, who defines chocolate flavor? I would say the tree itself!Hearts!Sacred Steve
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
12/14/08 01:11:00AM
116 posts
Most of the beans I use are unfermented and only sun dried. Then, I don't roast them. Then, I slowly stone grind them over many many days at temperatures that never exceed 114 F. This is my definition of RAW chocolate. Everybody is FREE to create their very own definition of RAW chocolate. Yay!Super Hearts!Sacred Steve
James Cary
@james-cary
12/14/08 05:02:34AM
32 posts
Just reading Jane Goodall's Harvest for Hope. She notes that baboons and chimpanzees have been observed to "forage in the blackened ground after a brush fire has swept through. It seems that they like the taste of singed insects and certain plant foods."Could be our ancestors long ago mastered fire for taste first, then it was learned that fewer people got sick from the cooked stuff.But, I agree that taste is a very valid reason to consider raw vs cooked. I'll take a raw piece of tuna over a cooked one anyday (as long as it's ok to consume raw).
Lemm Huang
@lemm-huang
12/14/08 01:10:00PM
13 posts
I see your point Steve,I even blindfold my children on a taste test. One minute they like sample A, then they like sample B and finally they go back to sample A.For the first time, I just finished making two small batches of homemade raw chocolate using organic raw cocoa powder first and then cocoa paste. Both came from raw fermented Criollo beans from Peru. It was delicious!! My wife and three childred wanted more and more.Then we got a 72% cocoa content bar from an ordinary grocery store and compared the taste. They all said to me that they like the taste of homemade better (I haven't blindfolded them here).I simply heated the cocoa in the oven at about 115 F. Then I mixed in some "raw" cane sugar powder, maple syrup, extra virgin coconut oil and lucuma and some vanilla.In addition to the chocolate flavor present, I get a tinge of fruit and acidic taste. What I don't get is the strong roasted flavors. I also get a little pungent odor from the cocoa paste batch that I and my family do not care for.So I am concluding that you can still get some chocolate flavor from raw fermented Criollo beans, at least the Criollo one I got.
Jim2
@jim2
01/06/09 07:22:55PM
49 posts
Steve,You must be quoting temperatures for chocolate manufacture. I own cacau farms and during fermentation processes the temperature rise during the initial 48-60 hours climbs to 51+degrees C which equates to 123+degrees F. Unless you reach these levels the bean will not fully ferment and likely result in "sprouting".
juicemonkey
@juicemonkey
02/12/09 08:51:29AM
1 posts
"Say somebody reads the below and gets the idea that they are now only going to eat raw cacao with ayahuasca (assuming they are an ayahuasca user, rare breed indeed, but possible) based on the information presented below by Nison/Saffaron; that it is only eaten by indigenous people along with their ayahuasca brew, and therefore safe consumed in that way. Well, should somebody do that, it could result in a hypertensive crises based on the information in Erowid: "its important to reiterate that this assertion is wrong and has been disproven and written about many timesbut this old MAOi disclaimer just wont lie down and die!the contraindications apply to non reversible MAO inhibitors, such as pharmaceuticals like mocoblomideNOT to weak reversible inhibitors like Harmine, Tetrahydroharmine and Harmaline.Raw chocolate, possibly the Theobrominedoes potentiate ayahuasca. its not just there for tasteplease read developmnets at ayahuasca.com forums regarding potentiation of the ayahuasca effect using Cacao"From personal experience I can tell you that ayahuasca is poisonous as the first reaction your body has to ingesting it is a sincere desire to vomit."This is not universal. often it is a function of the quality of how the brew is made. a thick brown tannin rich brew will nauseate. however as an extract or light brew it does not inherently cause vomiting.Ayahuasca studies show the brew to be beneficail to the physical and mental health of groups taking it.it is not toxic in the classical use of the word"One example is ayahuasca itself. It is made from two different plants - neither of which have psychoactive properties. "Not true also. B caapi is psychoactive in its own right. the visions are less colourful without the DMT from the Psychotria viridis but they are certainly there.Ayahuasca is made from many plants. the only constant is the use of the liane Banisteriopsis caapi. Not all ayahuasca brews contain DMT and not in all cases is that from P viridis. There are numerous admixture planst and its evolution is dynamic."The bottom line is no matter what someone feels, or believes, cacao is toxic! Science will confirm it."soybeans are toxic and antinutritional too if you dont prepare them right. The indigenous rainforest people near where i live susbsited on cooked animals and processed toxic seeds and nuts. eating them unprocessed can kill you, but if you know how then they become an easy to gather rich food resourcethey were pygmied ( rainforest adapted) but strong people - despite toxic food and cooked food.Raw foodists would be neither in that environmnet, they would be plain dead.http://earthsci.org/aboriginal/Ngadjonji%20History/Quest%20for%20food/Ngadjonji%20search%20for%20food.htm"No animal in nature will eat it unless tricked into it with milk or sugar."Cacao would have a natural animal vector before humans cultivated it.this animal may be unknown, or extinct.there are many plants out there whose original vector is now extinct or missinghttp://ebd10.ebd.csic.es/mywork/frubase/bigfruits.html
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
02/15/09 02:56:04PM
116 posts
"its important to reiterate that this assertion is wrong and has been disproven and written about many timesbut this old MAOi disclaimer just wont lie down and die!the contraindications apply to non reversible MAO inhibitors, such as pharmaceuticals like mocoblomideNOT to weak reversible inhibitors like Harmine, Tetrahydroharmine and Harmaline.Raw chocolate, possibly the Theobrominedoes potentiate ayahuasca. its not just there for tasteplease read developmnets at ayahuasca.com forums regarding potentiation of the ayahuasca effect using Cacao"All I can say, is that from personal experience, there is a potential danger and caution should be exercised.Hearts,Sacred Steve
Ernesto B. Pantua Jr.
@ernesto-b-pantua-jr
02/17/09 08:43:12AM
7 posts
Hi Sarah,We are cacao farmers in southern Philippines. For us raw chocolate are just sun dried cacao beans, you eat the beans unprocessed that is unroasted. The taste is weird, but from my readings it is supposed to be 80% healthier than roasted beans.Jun
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
02/17/09 08:45:19AM
116 posts
Hi Jun,Do you sell certified organic cacao beans? I am looking for additional sources.Hearts,Sacred Steve
Ernesto B. Pantua Jr.
@ernesto-b-pantua-jr
02/20/09 12:54:54AM
7 posts
Hi Steve,We have been certified locally last 2003 but unfortunately since then we have not renewed our certification since we got no organic product buyer. Annual certification renewal would cost us at least 1000 USD so without a buyer, we will only be throwing our money for nothing, inspite of this we still grow our crops organically. If youre still interested drop me a message will be most interested to supply you.
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
02/20/09 02:50:42AM
116 posts
Can you send some samples of your organic beans, nibs, and non-deodorized butter?
Jim2
@jim2
02/27/09 05:11:26AM
49 posts
Steve,I am interested in the post harvest processes for raw chocolate beans. I plan to do tests on a fermentation batch next week and would like additional details.1, during the normal fermentation cycle, we have recorded temperatures above 53C. I plan to install a thermocouple in the pile and sample on 30 min intervals to graph the process. When we arrive at 114 F, is the process considerd complete or are there processes that restrict the process until temperatures fall then restart the process.2. what are the indicatiors that raw fermentation has been completed? What are cut test indicators? Is there a defined period that the beans must remain at the 114F level? Other data available to tell me when t's correctly fermented?3. Drying processes will require incremental drying in the sun at periods of indirect sunlight. The temperatures at sun's zenith will easily exceed 114F. If we dry in early morning and late afternoob periods I will be able to avoid overheating but will require extended drying time. What is the level in % of humidity for a properly processed bean?If you will help me define the processes and give some guidance regarding the final product characteristic, I will run the test, compile data and photos then post the results on this site.Best regardsJim Lucas
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
03/16/09 04:18:35AM
116 posts
Hi Jim, You need to hold it at 114 F by mixing. Depends on beans, but it should be correctly fermented at about 1.2 to 1.4 times the normal fermentation time. Ultimately, you won't be able to tell until after drying in order to check aroma and taste. Moisture content should be below 5% for a properly processed bean.Feel free to send me a sample and I will turn it into some bars for you.Sacred Steve
Clay Gordon
@clay
03/16/09 10:03:51AM
1,680 posts
Steve: Residual moisture levels in beans after drying is typically 6.5-7%. Below that and they are too fragile for shipping and further handling - they break too easily. Are you saying that because of the difference in fermentation the beans aren't as fragile at such a low moisture level because they have a different texture?


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clay - http://www.thechocolatelife.com/clay/
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
03/16/09 10:54:28AM
116 posts
Not sure of any mechanical property differences due to difference in fermentation. The beans we are familiar with are pretty tough at low moisture levels...I think one big difference is that they are very clean and thus slippery, alleviating extra torque on the bean during storage and shipping. Also, we only ship in small amounts so that weights and pressures are not that great.
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
03/17/09 02:23:21AM
116 posts

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A2483-2003Aug29&notFound=trueThis is a reference to the fact that although small, heating can cause trans fatty acids. The longer you heat and the higher the temperature, the more trans fats will be produced.
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
03/17/09 02:27:13AM
116 posts
You have to mix the beans before the temperature rise occurs and keep mixing in order to keep the temperature low. This results in a low temperature fermentation.
Clay Gordon
@clay
03/17/09 07:11:00PM
1,680 posts
Steve:Sorry, this article is about frying, not roasting. To quote:
" ... trans fatty acids can be "formed by the high temperatures of frying, so you may be making them yourself." High heat can cause the formation of minuscule amounts of trans fatty acids over extended lengths of time. But temperatures for traditional frying (300 to 350 degrees) and relatively short cooking times (5 to 10 minutes) would have a negligible effect on the formation of trans fat in cooking oil.

"... a recent [nb: the article was published in 2003] study conducted to determine the levels of trans fat isomers formed by heat found that in canola oil heated to 500 degrees for 30 minutes, trans fat levels were increased by only 1 percent. Traditional frying at lower temperatures for shorter lengths of time would produce significantly fewer trans fats."
If as the article states, ""Trans fatty acids don't occur naturally, except for small amounts in a few plants such as pomegranates, cabbage and peas ..." we can assume that there are no trans fats in cocoa butter - and an increase of 1% of zero is zero.


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clay - http://www.thechocolatelife.com/clay/

updated by @clay: 09/08/15 10:09:36PM
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
03/17/09 08:26:30PM
116 posts
Hi Clay, You are correct in that what you say is an "assumption". Your assumption however is not totally true. Until you can supply lab reports to show me, I am not convinced. Please see this full analysis we did on one of our raw recipes. Trans Fats are present in cacao, even in the raw state, but very minimal per this analysis by Covance: http://www.naturaw.com/sacred-chocolate/Sacred_Chocolate_Nutritional_Analysis_GINGER.pdf . Whether the heat source is coming from conduction or radiation, I feel certain trans fats are generated dependent on a time/temperature relationship. I would say that a safe assumption in roasting cacao is that trans fats are increased by 1 percent based on the analysis done above and typical cacao roasting environments.Hearts,Sacred Steve
Clay Gordon
@clay
03/17/09 11:14:42PM
1,680 posts
Steve: Apparently we have reached another Ning inanity - the limit of nesting. So I have to reply to my reply not to yours.The analysis you refer to indicates .011 grams (11 thousandths of a gram) per 100 grams of chocolate and .0051 grams (51 ten-thousandths of a gram) per approximately 45 gram serving (calculated, not stated). I am sorry here, but I don't see a 1% increase in 51 ten-thousandths of a gram as either clinically meaningful or statistically significant - especially when this report does not indicaate that the cacao was the source of the trans-fats (because the chocolate sample you reference was flavored, not pure chocolate).This is one sample of one recipe and I am going to assume that it's not representative of all bean types worldwide because they are not all present in this sample. I have been told that the chemical structure of cocoa butter varies widely from region to region (I know this empirically from personal experience), so do you have a way of knowing if the trans-fats level in this one sample is reflective of anything other than this one sample? I don't think you just can't generalize to all chocolates from this one sample.


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clay - http://www.thechocolatelife.com/clay/
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
03/17/09 11:33:31PM
116 posts
Hi Clay, responding to your below question, I don't have the funds to conduct a worldwide lab study of trans fats in cacao, unfortunately...how boring anyway. But, to remain purely logical, we still can't assume that trans fats do not exist in cacao from all the evidence thus provided in this forum. I just point to one example of its existence in the raw state. The only ingredients in that lab analysis were: raw cacao, maple sugar, and raw low temperature dehydrated ginger root. The ginger root is devoid of trans fats to the best of my research. It also represents an EXTREMELY small percentage of the overall constituents.Hearts,Sacred Steve
Sacred Steve
@sacred-steve
03/18/09 06:39:40PM
116 posts
I stand corrected! Sacred Chocolate has negligible trans fatty acids! Our claim is within the legal limits of the Food Laws of the USDA and FDA. Sorry if I have mislead you.Regarding the existance of trans fats in cacao, nobody has supplied any evidence to the contrary. My lab evidence is stronger than any other evidence supplied in this forum to date regarding the issue of trans fats in cacao and from heating oils/fats from the washington post article. Trans Fats are produced by heat, even though the increase is very small. Whether or not that is the case with cacao, nobody knows, but when it comes to people's health and what they put in their body, I personally would rather err on the side of caution than to say otherwise. I like to be conservative. Please forgive me on my trans fat statement!We are all at a stalemate on this issue until further lab testing is done.To me personally, this data collection is boring since I am a chocolate maker and not a lab technician.My goal is to educate people on the benefits of raw chocolate. I am a strong believer that raw chocolate is much healthier for people than cooked chocolate based on the research I have personally done. I have been deeply involved in raw foods since 1993.You can call this all pure farce if you wish, I have no objection and everybody has the right to their own opinion!Hearts,Sacred Steve
Ning-Geng Ong
@ning-geng-ong
04/07/15 05:23:25AM
36 posts

Following this logic of prioritising antioxidants, would consuming fresh cocoa bean be superior to raw chocolate? I'm asking because the fermentation process and taking the beans out of the pod, in contact with the atmosphere reasonably has the same effect on the beans as cutting apples. This is not discussion just for discussion sake but would really alter my ideas about what I can do with fresh pods.

Ilya Snowdon
@ilya-snowdon
07/04/15 05:47:03AM
20 posts

When People say raw chocolate. it would mean they are looking for the health benefits present in the cocoa beans before Roasting.

So in oder to classify it. one could call it raw if the nutritional value hadn't been cooked of in the processing of the chocolate.

A similar food market to compare it with would be nut butters. 

Roasted nuts taste so much better, but roasting changes the nut-butter fat.

I make nut butter in my chocolate melanger with a mix of roasted and unroasted nuts

GretaHass
@gretahass
04/17/17 05:37:09AM
22 posts

Sacred Steve: You have to actually get into it for a while and study and sit with it and it gets more clear after a while! Chocolate is really both an art and a science! A true alchemy!Hearts!Sacred Steve

Art and Science, yuupp!! <3

 
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