Forum Activity for @Clay

Ning Geng -

Here's the link to a video I posted recently of a seed cleaner that should be easily adapted for winnowing. If you visit the web site there's a dimensioned drawing you can use to build one.

One thing to note is that the chamber the cracked bean falls down has to be fairly narrow, as does the slit that the air pulls through. So, you want to make sure that seams are as close to air tight as you can. On a recent project I did, I had a lot of scrap plexiglass on hand and so I used nothing but that. It's a little hard to cut cleanly, but there are places to go where you can get the pieces cut for you if you're not comfortable doing it on your own.

The reason I used plexi is that it's food safe. In addition to the glue I used metal tape (that I got from a greenhouse store) to completely seal seams so no air got out. I can't overstate the importance of sealing the seams.

What I like about this design is the triangular blocks that introduce turbulence into the airflow coming from the bottom opening. This turbulence is one key to good results.

Another key is classification. If you pieces of greatly varying sizes, it's difficult to optimize the airflow. You either end up getting a lot piece you don't want falling out the bottom or you remove too much, reducing your overall yield. By pre-classifying (there is a link in the comments to the video for some ideas) you can set an optimized airflow for each fraction.

I just called Elaine and she said she was able to get in touch with the president of FBM, Umberto Boscolo who was reading his e-mail over the weekend. A quick Skype video call took care of everything and now Elaine is back in production.

Jim:

The cleaner in the video could be adapted for winnowing, not cleaning prior to roasting. It's a device that could be more functional than one made from PVC pipe. Using pre-classification sieves before winnowing would improve throughput and yield.

You are right, there should be absolutelynoneed for the purchaser of cacao beans to clean cocoa beans. However, not all growers/exporters are as diligent as you are, and not all purchasers understand the cost/labor tradeoff. It makes more sense to pay a premium for cleaned beans because the farm gate premium is almost always going to be far less than the cost of doing it yourself.

Unfortunately, quality control with respect to cleaning and inspection for defects is not always done on the farm. I purchased some beans from the DR through a broker and the official grading specification allowed up to 3% trash -small pieces of wood, flats, doubles, and other defects - by weight. I have seen bags with nails and stones in them.

In another discussion here on TheChocolateLife, member Mahmoud Baktaji asked about existing bean-to-bar chocolate schools to attend.

Based on responses to that post, I thought it would be interesting to ask the question directly to members:

If someone was going to be developing a hands-on bean-to-bar chocolate school, what would/should the curriculum include? What would be a good location for it? What techniques and equipment should be covered? And -- finally and importantly -- what would you be willing to pay to attend such a school?

Sebastian:

That's a great topic. I started a new forum discussion just for that purpose.

Sebastian:

Priced right, located here in the US, and hands-on.

Absolutely yes.

Guittard has a range of chocolates with 70%+ cocoa content. Many of them are available in bar form and you might be able to find them at a local retailer. This will be cheaper than buying samples in either 1k or 5kg boxes.

What's your budget? And is your customer sophisticated enough to tell the difference and be willing to pay for it?

Valrhona is a good chocolate but it's at the upper end of the range, price wise. Even in 100lb quantities you're looking at $8+/pound plus shipping.

Callebaut/Cacao Barry, Belcolade, Guittard - you should be able to get those for between $3-5/lb. Domori would be about the same price as Valrhona.

If you're remelting and molding, unless the customer has specified a gourmet European brand, perhaps a US-made product might be nice. Guittard is made in California. There are some Callebaut-branded chocolates that are made in Vermont.

I may be able to help you out on the Guittard and/or Valrhona if you can't find a local supplier.

Jackie:

Online - 100 lbs is a lot to ship, but there are on-line stores you can order from. Chocosphere has one of the broadest selections, but it's in Oregon so shipping to you is going to be most expensive. So going ...

Local -

There should be a bakery supply company in your area. They will usually carry a number of different chocolate brands, most likely the more commercial brands. They may or may not require you to set up an account, but the ones in my area will sell to just about anyone.

If you have a friend in a restaurant (or bakery) who orders through Sysco, UNFI, or another major distributor they also carry major brands and you might be able to get them to include the chocolate you want in their next order. You'll get good prices and shipping should be free.

If you're looking for a particular brand, e.g., Valrhona, Domori, Callebaut, Guittard, look up the company web site for their local distributor or call the 800# to find out who sells it locally.

Dorothy:

Yes, I was referring to Fran's Chocolates in Seattle in my response.

I don't know where Fran's got their molds, I suspect that they were custom made. Contact Truffly Made to see what they have in stock - one might work for you.

I don't know if there is still a ChocolateLife member offer, but you can ask.

:: Clay

Christopher -

A great observation. "Rework" is an overlooked skill.

Andrea:

Temperatures are relative. You want the center at about the temperature of the work room. If the center is very soft at this temp it may need to be colder so that it will hold its shape. Will that affect the temper of the chocolate? It could. You'll have to work within your own situation to find out.

Walt:

ChocolateLife sponsor Truffly Made molds can be used for caramel - the square may work for you. Right now they are offering a "buy five get one free" offer plus they are offering free shipping on orders of three or more.

If you don't want to make this sort of investment without first trying them out, just search for

" silicone caramel molds "

on Google. There are any number of suppliers offering many different shapes, sizes, and configurations. You do have to make sure that the mold is convex (wider at the opening or the caramel won't come out of the mold) and that there's not too much fine detail (the caramel will release cleanly and the detail that is there will be visible, when making harder caramels).

You can also pour the hot caramel into silicon molds. There are a number of people who do this - saw it in mass production when I was in Seattle in October - and while it's expensive in terms of up-front investment, the labor savings is tremendous. You can put the molds right on top of your marble slab or water-cooled table.

Brad:

Directly from Valrhona, price for "pistoles" of couverture darks and milks average around US$8/lb for their minimum wholesale order.

Guittard runs considerably less, with their most expensive product being under US$6/lb for their minimum wholesale order but most running in the $3-5 range depending on format and pack.

Callebaut products are generally price-competitive with Guittard, though some of the origins and the Cacao Barry rare origine line are at the high end of the range. Belcolade is at the lower end of the range, generally.

Prices are negotiable to some extent as you go closer to the manufacturer/importer and can quote larger volumes.

In general, it's best to be just slightly less expensive than your target price competition.

You can have only one bar of chocolate. The circumstances don't matter (zombie apocalypse, climate change devastates cacao around the world, you're stranded on a desert island, etc), you can only choose one.

Which one is it?

After my recent trip to Europe, I'd pick the IL100% Criollo from Domori. Why? It delivers pure chocolate intensity with no punches pulled.

Yours?

Scott -

I saw this last night and posted it to Twitter (@DiscoverChoc) and Facebook (as you mention) and got several responses there.

I have to agree with the point that this appears to be more of a fundraising program than a serious attempt at creating the "$100 bar of chocolate." But it's also important to recognize that Woodblock is being straight up and open about what they are doing. They're not promoting the project as something that it's not. What is on offer is the opportunity to support the important work the ICG is doing (now without direct government support) plus a rather unusual bar of chocolate made from beans from the trees that grow in the germplasm bank. While there's no way to know how good the chocolate will be, the bar (and the label) should have some value as a collector's item. Hopefully Charley will recognize that and batch/number the bars. If the project is successful I can see Woodblock doing this on an annual basis as it's (the ICG) is a project worth supporting. That said, it might make more sense as a tax-deductible contribution to the ICG where the perk is a bar. Of the $100 donation $X would be attributed to the bar and not be tax deductible. This might get more people to support the ICG.

Brad:

This is not a competition. I don't feel the need to prove anything to you. I offer up my observations and advice freely - both actually and figuratively.

You may be right, I am not your customer. And I never will be as you long as you think we're in competition in any way - and continue to frame things in competitive terms.

But what I do think is relevant to your business, albeit in a way that probably has very little actual effect on your sales as your market is pretty much self-limited to Calgary, Alberta and my "market" is a community spanning more than 160 countries. What I do is improve people's awareness and appreciation of fine chocolate, and I do it on a global scale. And I give you the opportunity - at no charge to you (does that make me a bad business person?) - to share your views with my global audience. I invite you in to participate in my business.

You may scoff at that statement, but I have extended global awareness of your brand, your company, and you.

I am sure you have more customers than TheChocolateLife counts members, but we use very different systems to calculate their value to us. We have very different ends, and are pursuing very different means to achieve them.

But what we are not is competitors.

Brad (recognizing that there is probably more than a little tongue in cheek in your response) -

Nope. Packaging and shipping can't be included. The chocolate itself has to sell for $100 bar.

You can price it however you want, but the community of people who rate and review the chocolate need to agree with you that it's worth that price. It has to sell at that price. People need to be willing to buy at that price. I've tried your chocolate and, IMO (as a professional taster), it's not at that caliberyet. And not just me, C-Spot agrees.

AND you(as the manufacturer) and the distributor(s) have to spend money to support the marketing and sampling of the bar and support the community of chocolate critics and chocolate sommeliers who educate the consumers.

ANYBODY can price a bar as a stunt (and several have - remember Noka? [and I am not comparing you to them]), but in the end stunts work to the detriment of the community at large.

The point that I am making is that until there is a selection of chocolate bars that command prices an order of magnitude higher than the average prices today ($5-9), then there will be no money in the system to support the chocolate critics and chocolate sommeliers who can then educate people about why it's okay to spend that amount of money.

It's a circular argument, I am aware. But as long as the only marketing budgets belong to mass-market candy makers, the market for gourmet, craft, artisan, chocolate is hindered.

I was thinking the chocolate equivalent of the classic 750ml wine bottle.So 100gr was what I was using as a benchmark.

What weight do you propose? Smaller quantities get a premium as packaging and labor take up a relatively higher percentage of the COGS.

The Oialla box is what - 10, 5gr squares? Personally, I think the ratio of packaging to product is way too high. I cringe when I think about it.

Domori is selling in 25gr bars of four squares. Their 100% Criollo is well under 10 for that quantity.

Michael -

Many times over the past few years I've floated the idea that any market that is large enough to support a craft brewery is large enough to support a craft chocolate maker. So, I agree with you about many of your points.

Was Starbucks necessary? Maybe. I do think they accelerated the development of the specialty coffee market. In the town where I live Starbucks moved right across the street from the local coffee shop, which also roasts. People predicted the decline of the local shop but I am happy to say that it has thrived and consistently produces a better cup - at a lower price.

Nonetheless, Starbucks helped fuel the differentiation of coffee and drive the prices up. You're right, 20 years ago most people would not pay $3 for a cup of coffee outside of an upscale restaurant or hotel. Now it's accepted. Starbucks was able to effect this change, relatively quickly (and this is after Howard Schultz stepped in), by recognizing they weren't selling coffee, customers were buying being associated with a lifestyle choice that went far beyond "regular, light, dark, and black." Half-caf, skinny ... the endless personalization of the drink helped fuel what had, up to then, been undifferentiated.

In part, the specialty coffee market has grown as a reaction to corporate coffee. There are big companies (and smaller ones) who have tried to do something similar in chocolate, but those efforts have failed ... so far. Not that it can't be done, just that no-one has hit upon the winning formula, yet.

I do think that the immediacy and personalization available in coffee (and that accounts for Coldstone Creamery's longevity) doesn't really have an equivalent in the chocolate market. That's not strictly true I realize as I write it. There are some on-line retailers that do customized chocolate bars and I know you can go into the Ritter Museum in Germany and order customized bars and wait for them.

I look forward to learning more about your project and following its progress. I don't think it's the nature of the beast, just that it's going to take someone to challenge the existing models in ways that have long-term appeal to consumers.And I don't think it will be one thing, it will be a confluence of things. The $100 bar is just one.

Gap -

A good observation and one that is being hinted at in other responses. For example, Starbucks costs as much as it does not because it's such good coffee (objectively, it's not), people are paying for the experience, buying into the brand's lifestyle. Most people don't know this, but the two ingredients that comprise most of what Starbucks consumes are water and milk. Actual coffee is #3.

That said, is the presentation of the chocolate curated and moderated? Is there someone with expertise who's making the selection, providing the information, and more? Or, are the tastings unguided?

:: Clay

Lane:

There's a new boutique bean broker in Portland, Meridian Cacao. They don't have any Porcelana (now), but if I recall correctly they are waiting to receive a container of Gran Couva from Trinidad ... and they are going to be selling in small quantities, e.g., 10-20lb minimums.

Thomas:

The commodities market price for (robusta) coffee right now is about $1.05/lb, or about $2350/MT. The price for commodity cocoa is about $2470, for comparison purposes.

These markets are called the "formal markets," which means the transactions are recorded and the prices are known. Thus it's possible for a buyer to pick up a phone to a seller and purchase cocoa according to standard terms and conditions, and according to established grading standards using standardized contract terms.

Coffee and cocoa are also traded on what is called the "informal market," where transactions are not recorded and each sale is negotiated on a personal basis. One kind of informal market is Direct Trade, where the buyer buys directly from the grower. Prices are negotiated in private and may vary from contract to contract which may embody non-standard (with respect to industry norms) terms and conditions.

There are informal markets in coffee that are very public, and the best known of these are the ones associated with the Cup of Excellence Awards. While commodity coffee hovers between US$1 - $2/lb, prices paid for select lots at CoE auctions routinely fetch US$20+/lb. One lot of Guatemalan coffee fetched $80.20 - per pound - in 2008. You do have to calculate in the auctioneer's fees (typically 15%), but the prices paid at the CoE auctions are the gross amount paid to the farmer. A normal 60kg bag of robusta would fetch $138 on the commodity market. The farmer is probably only getting 70% of that. On the other hand, in the CoE, that 60kg bag would fetch over $5000 at $50/lb even after auction fees are deducted. If a farmer has seven bags of coffee that fetches even $20/lb, they are doing very well indeed.

But even those prices are nowhere near the upper limit on coffee prices: there are exotic coffees that retail for as much as $1300/lb, according to the article on Kopi Luwak coffee on Wikipedia.

I spoke with Stephane Bonnat in 2010 when I was last at the Salon du Chocolat, and he said he was paying farmers 6000/mt for some of his beans. That's about US$3.50/lb at today's exchange rate. If I recall correctly, there are cocoa beans that command higher prices, still. Earlier, I reported that the Mast Bros had indicated that they'd paid as much as US$20,000/ton ($10/lb) for beans. (It was not clear what this price referred to - the farm gate price or the delivered price, though the likelihood is that it was the delivered price and the farmers received considerably less.)

At $20,000/ton delivered, the cost of the cocoa in a 100gr, 80% bar is about $2.20. Assume manufacturing doubles that cost in one-ton quantities. Throw in $1/unit for packaging and you have a cost of goods (very naively) of about $5.40. A retail price of $30 for such a bar is not an unreasonable lower bound, assuming the bar is made to be eaten right away, and accounting for a three-tier (broker (15%), distributor (20%), retailer (100%)) distribution system where the chocolate maker enjoys a 50% gross margin.

Doubling the delivered price of cocoa (to $40,000/ton with the farmer getting at least 75% of that), doubling the cost of packaging to $2/unit, allowing $40k/ton for manufacturing, aging, and other processing , and setting the gross margin to the chocolate maker at 70% gets the retail price of the bar around the $100 price point - and there is now over $35 per bar available for marketing and other activities on a 100gr bar that costs over $10 each to manufacture. In other words, there's a lot of money in the system to pay for experts whose job it is to educate people about the merits of this $100 bar.

It would require a substantial change in mindset for this to happen, but if it did happen, the entire chocolate industry would benefit tremendously.

Still the questions remain, what are more of the characteristics that define this $100 bar? There have been some good suggestions already but I am sure we can come up with more.

Michael:

You are not wrong in your pointing to coffee, not wine, as a potential model for chocolate to follow.

But (naturally) I think there's a lot of nuance and difference in the markets. I can appreciate the SCAA's work in growing the coffee market - which included increased respect for roasters and baristas - but the differences in production between coffee and chocolate do not (I think) translate into chocolate being able to take the same path. One reason is the immediacy of coffee. I can walk into a coffee shop with a roaster and talk to the people who roast the beans and pull the shots (might even be the same person). I can then endlessly customize the form of the delivery and consumption: method of brewing, cortado, macchiato, espresso, Americano, cappuccino, doppio, lungo, ristretto, type of milk, flavoring, size, foam or no foam or in-between foam.

While there are some new chocolate factories opening up in retail-friendly places that invite interaction between the roaster/barista/consumer, the level of meaningful customization in chocolate is just not there.

One question I do have for you is where you think the chocolate equivalent of Starbucks will come from. Starbucks (irrespective of what we think of their beverages) is in large part responsible for the growth of interest in coffee, moving it from a simple beverage purchase with very limited options to a lifestyle choice. They can take beans that retail for $9/lb (and cost less than $2) and when they sell it as a beverage can reap gross margins of thousands of percents. SO, the economics do work in that respect. The question for chocolate is where the marketing $$ is going to come from. It's not coming from Hershey/Nestl/Mars/Kraft - in the gourmet sector, though it could, I suppose. Mars likes to try to innovate in this respect, witness Ethel M and Pure Dark. But they are fundamentally a mass market consumer organization and face the same issues Hershey had in trying to create a credible gourmet brand image.

Another thing to consider is that the chocolate industry does not have a magazine of its own. Coffee has many. Why?

So - I don't think the business models directly translate but there are parallels that can be used for guidance.

And, I say again that a cocoa version of the Cup of Excellence would be a good idea. The organizers of the Salon du Chocolat have a Cocoa Excellence awards but it is missing, entirely, any idea of how a winner of one of the awards can monetize it. The same is true, I fear, of the FCIA's Heirloom Cacao Project. I was at the meeting in DC in the summer when they announced it, acknowledging that it was still in the early stages, but the lack of attention to recognizing any increase in economic value of a cacao deemed worthy of being designated heirloom was a glaring omission, in my opinion.

All this said, I think your points are an excellent starting point for continued discussion, and I look forward to it. A lot.

Melanie:

You also need to start thinking about a PDO system. Coffee has Kona all sewn up and probably won't like the application to cacao. Place names are going to be very important to elevating awareness.

Many people know Chuao, and there are many names associated with cacao but they are used confusingly. Ocumare is a place? And a varietal? What about Rio Caribe? Can you get true criollos from Rio Caribe? Maralumi? Place or made up name?

Knowing what you have (and don't) and communicating it properly will be important in getting better prices.

Hawaii can lead the way on this; the community is small, the industry is still really nascent, and there are knowledgeable people. Getting the legislature to recognize the potential economic advantage (making the connection to Kona) could get them to act.

Brad:

You ship now? To New York?

<big grin - sorry, couldn't resist, hope you don't mind the humor>

Sebastian:

Fritz's truffle is expensive as it is - it's made to order, only - because of the ingredients, including gold leaf.

For the $100 bars you're offering to make, what characteristics of the bars make them worthy of the price tag, other than made to order in extremely limited availability?

Tom:

This is along the lines of what I was hoping to elicit. What is interesting is that I see examples in places where this is starting to emerge. Take what Frank Homann is doing on the farm side at Xoco, for example, or what Gianluca Franzoni has been doing in a vertically integrated way from farm to factory ... his 100% Criollo bar is about as close as it comes today, IMO, and the price is extremely reasonable at about 5/25gr.

Lowe:

The Cocoa Gourmet instance is an example of where the ingredients (and presentation) being the major cost of the final product, not the chocolate itself, which is re-melted Felchlin. Gold and silver leaf, custom wood boxes ...

The point is to create a chocolate that doesn't need gilding to be seen as deserving the price paid.

Lowe:

A case of deceptive marketing practices that was ultimately unmasked. However, there is a kernel of truth in the fact that part of any consumer market can be swayed by marketing. The people perceived that the chocolate was worth the price they were paying based on the story (now known to be false being told about it.

Okay, we know that the market, or at least a part of it, will pay that amount of money for chocolate. Now we just have to create one that deserves that price point on its merits.

Wine sommeliers are often hired by restaurants to curate their wine offerings and in many cases they are part of the wine service - their salaries are built in to the prices paid for the wines in those settings. There are some occasions where I have been approached to curate a chocolate selection for a restaurant but not one of them has ever resulted in actually getting hired to curate a selection, let alone create a program where a person was involved in service.

Turning the chocolate into confections is one way to raise the price charged for the chocolate, but that price increase is incidental to the other aspects of the confection's creation.

There are professional tasters in the chocolate industry but I don't see the small artisan makers employing them. Like wine makers, the chocolate makers make what they make and independent experts pass judgment that the market values and pays for.

Andy:

The wine makers who thrive in the $10-$100 price range benefit directly and indirectly from the $1000 bottles - even though they don't make bottles in the upper price range.

It's not necessary for a chocolate maker to make only super-premium priced products, just as it's not necessary for a wine maker to make only super-premium wines. However, in an evening where you're trying some $20-30 reds, a $100 Bordeaux is an interesting addition. Why not see chocolate that way?

The coffee analogy is interesting, and prices for brewed coffee vary widely and are not necessarily dependent on bean quality. Some of the worst coffee I have ever had has been some of the most expensive ... in hotel dining rooms. That said, I do see a cocoa equivalent of coffee's cup of excellence as a very good thing in its own right.

When I was in London a couple of weeks ago speaking at the Academy of Chocolate conference, I had the great privilege of being the last speaker of the day. This enabled me to pay attention to what everybody else was saying and present a summary of what I heard in the context of my own panel presentation which was billed as, "The Global Future of Chocolate."

After presenting a summation, I urged the audience to consider a number of calls to action. Too often at conferences like this one a great deal of good information is shared but then that information does not get disseminated after the conference is over. We all go our own separate ways and little substantive really occurs.

I presented two calls to action that are related to each other:

1) The fine chocolate industry needs professional certification programs similar to ones that graduate professional sommeliers in wine.

2) The fine chocolate industry needs a $100 bar of chocolate.

If you think about it, if all wine was priced under $20/bottle and the majority of it was mass market and not very well differentiated, there would be no need for sommeliers. The fact that there are $1000 bottles makes $100 bottles seem less extravagant and the $100 bottles make $10-20 bottles seem like very good deals indeed.

More to the point, the actual manufacturing cost difference between the $1000 bottle and the $100 (or $20 bottle) are not as great as the price differences indicate. The price differences are a result of many factors that include wine quality, origin, manufacturer, scarcity, and reviews. What this means in practice is that there is a lot of money in the system that can be used to pay professionals whose job it is to educate people about why it's okay to pay $1000 for a bottle - or $100 for a bottle - when there are lots of much-more-than-adequate $10-20 bottles around.

Getting back to chocolate, most of it is mass market blah that costs $1-3 per bar. Most bars are in the $3-7 range.There is a small handful of bars that cost $10-15, and an even small number of bars that cost $20 or more at least here in the US. Some of the price differential is related to manufacturing costs - e.g., higher prices for beans in smaller quantities. However, here in the US, the largest factors contributing to high retail prices on the most expensive bars are exchange rates (the US$ is fairly weak right now), the cost of importing, and a relatively high cost of specialty foods distribution here in the US. The Bonnat Porcelana bars that cost $25 here in New York can be purchased for half that price in France.

Because the vast majority of chocolate bars is under $7 at retail, there is no money in the systemto pay for professional chocolate sommeliers and professional chocolate critics. There is a small group of people - relatively speaking - who do this, but I don't know a one who can make a decent full-time living being just a chocolate sommelier/critic.

What this means is that there is neither any need for, nor any economic value in, someone pursuing a professional certification because there is no way for anyone to generate a decent return on investment on the time and money invested in earning the certification, in part because the market does not recognize the need for it.

With a $100 chocolate bar (or, ideally, many $100 chocolate bars), the stage is set for the conditions that support professional certifications. The $100 chocolate bar makes the $10-20 bar seem not so unreasonable in price, and, thus "more affordable" for people looking to expand their taste. More importantly, the actual cost of production of a $100 bar is not 10x the cost of a $10 bar, which means that there would be more money in the system for marketing - which supports a host of other activities.

It is also very important that any $100 bar of chocolate be worth that price based on intrinsic factors that people who are knowledgeable about chocolate will agree support that price. The bar doesn't cost $100 because it is decorated with gold leaf or contains every expensive other ingredients: the bar costs $100 because of what went in to its making.

Now, having said that, I don't know exactly what those factors are. However, the idea was also presented at the Origin Chocolate conference in Amsterdam actually for a 100 bar just four days after I proposed it by Philipp Kauffmann, one of the founders of the Original Beans chocolate company, independently of my bringing it up in London. So I am not the only one thinking this way.

Having said all that, I am writing this in the hopes of hearing from members: a) what they think of the idea, in general, and b) what they think attributes of a $100 bar might include. Following are some of my ideas for factors that could contribute to a $100 bar:

#1) When I was talking with Mikkel Friis-Holm in London, he mentioned that he had some chocolate that was inedibly tannic when it was made. He put it away for a couple of months and then tasted it again and the level of tannins was much lower than it was when the chocolate was made. Still inedible, but much better. He is going to taste the chocolate again several months from now to see if it's any better. The corollary here is that there is actually very little wine that is made to be drunk in the days or weeks immediately after it's produced. Virtually all wine made is aged to some extent- and a lot of wine is made knowing that it will take years (or decades) before the wine reaches its optimal drinking condition. Virtually all chocolate is made to consume "young." Even when it's got a shelf life rating of two years, it's made to be consumed within weeks of being made. I wonder what would happen if people deliberately started making chocolate that was not going to be fit for consumption for two to five years, or more? And then selling "bar futures" on the chocolate.

#2) I was talking with Sepp Schnbchler of Felchlin in Amsterdam and he mentioned that Felchlin has quantities of the the 65% Grand Cru Maracaibo dating back to 1999. Whenever a new person comes into his department, they are tasked with re-tempering some of that chocolate which is, of course, all Form VI crystals at this point. Sepp notices some differences in taste between the 1999 "vintage" and the current "vintage" -- mainly in the fact that some of the top-note aromatic notes have disappeared. At the same time, the loss of those top notes should allow other flavor notes to come forward. There are wine and spirits industry practices of vintage blending. For example, in rums, solera blending adds small amounts of aged rum to younger rums to up the "tasting age" and make a limited supply of aged rum go much farther. I wonder what the outcome would be of blending a small amount of a much older chocolate with younger versions of the same chocolate (or different chocolates)? You could get the "youth and vitality" of the newer chocolates with some of the depth and complexity of the older chocolates.

#3)What about inoculating a milk chocolate with a specific mold spore after being aged for one year and then age it for one or more years longer?

The fact is, no-one really knows what the outcomes of such practices would be, because the economics of the $7 bar market don't support such lines of experimentation. But I put the challenge out there to chocolate makers around the word, especially to companies with stock of older chocolates, to start exactly that sort of experimentation - to set aside a very short-term outlook and think about practices that could result in a $100 bar of chocolate that everyone agrees is worth it.

I don't think that the $100 bar will appear this year or next, but it could. Five to ten years is a more reasonable time frame, but only if we get started down this path soon.

Your thoughts?

[Note: Edited by the OP to correct grammar and typos. ]

Omar -

I would ask the people at Coffee-Tech their experience with shipping to the UAE. You never know.

With respect to the other machines you are talking about. It is very important to be able to control the speed of the drum. Coffee and nut roasters almost certainly rotate too quickly. Cocoa beans, when roasted are very fragile and if they break in the roaster the small fragments can burn easily. You will need to slow the drum down.

Omar - check out the roasters from Coffee-Tech (Israel). There are a number of roaster sizes available, up to 90kg , and they incorporate a variety of roasting technologies - and the machines are being used for cocoa roasting in Europe and other places. My contact there is Dan Urieli.

Keep in mind that coffee roasters, as is, are not really suitable for cocoa beans. You need to alter the drum speed (slow them down), and the capacity will be less (how much depends on the roaster design). Also keep in mind that hourly capacities for cocoa will be much lower than for coffee as the roasting times for cocoa are much longer, on average, than for coffee. While a 90kg roaster might be able to manage 4 or more coffee roasts an hour, it might only make one for cocoa.

There is a special offer on Coffee-Tech roasters for ChocolateLife members , so when you get in touch with Dan, let him know that you are a ChocolateLife member.

Tony:

In future, posts for equipment go in Classifieds.

:: Clay

All:

I don't have a problem with promoting your own work (though a forum discussion is not the right place to do it).

However, I do ask that members be up front when they are promoting their own work.

The book's authors are the faculty of Chocolate University Online (the OP of this thread) so I find the "I just learned" to be potentially misleading without acknowledging authorship.

:: Clay

Omar -

I think the better way to answer the question is, "You don't get what you don't pay for." While Pomati machines may be more budget-friendly than Selmi's (and FBM is in between) you need to ask why that is the case. What are the reasons for the differences in pricing?

Having looked closely at a T5 on a trip to Europe a while ago, one question I know to ask is about build quality. What are the materials used and how does the machine feel? This is far more important than how does the machine look. Many people buy the machine thinking that the looks are important ... but when the machine is in the kitchen and covered with chocolate during a long work day, looks actually are not that important!

Build quality also applies to what is inside the machine - the workmanship and materials and approach to the art and science of tempering. Here, the small details make a large difference. For example, where are the temperature sensors located? I can tell you that you want the sensor measuring the temperature of the tempered chocolate as close to the point that the chocolate is being used as possible. If the sensor is halfway up the cooling/tempering auger the machine is not measuring the temperature accurately.

Another example: I recently learned the importance of the relative size of the core of the screw pump auger to the size of the tempering pipe. If the diameter of the core is wide (compared with the diameter of the pipe) then the machine can do a better job of developing crystals in the chocolate because there is more contact between the chocolate and the cooled surface of the pipe. However, this reduces the volume of flow of chocolate. You can increase the flow by reducing the diameter of the core of the auger, but this reduces the quality of crystal formation - which is what tempering chocolate is all about.

Brian:

Thanks for your nuanced approach to this issue.

Laura:

Inquiries like this one go in the Classifieds group, not in the home page discussion.

:: Clay

Elizabeth:

You should post equipment for sale in the Classifieds groups (under the Shop tab in the top navigation).

:: Clay