Forum Activity for @Clay

Think about it. Do you want to bake your beans? Or roast them?

Convection ovens have the advantage of being very inexpensive.

That said, in my experience, I have NEVER found a convection oven that heats the entire cavity left to right, top to bottom, back to front, evenly. In practice the result is unevenly baked (not roasted) beans. This is true even if you use perforated pans. You can a) rotate the pans during baking (which has other issues related to recovery time), or b) get an oven that rotates the baking rack during the cook cycle.

One technique you should learn from the coffee roasting community is about variable airflow - changing airflow and temperature enables you to get the most out of different beans. With a convection oven, you don't have precise control over airflow, so your baking profiles in a convection oven do not have the control you need to develop maximum flavor for a variety of bean types.

There have to be compelling reasons why coffee roasters are willing to spend $125,000 for half-bag roasters with digital controls. Now - you might not find that you can make a business with a $125k coffee roaster, but trying to "make do" with a $1500 convection oven is not the only alternative.

John:

The process Totally Chocolate uses is patented. The site refers to engraving and molds so whatever they're doing they are able to get fine details in their masters and transfer them to the plastic molds. As they are short run molds it probably helps that they are using comparatively thin plastic sheets because they don't expect to be producing more that many pieces - which helps a lot.

I spent about 3 minutes looking for the patent. If it is a good patent, it will tell you what they are doing and how they are doing it. A good CNC device and/or laser cutter is a necessity, as is a very good understanding of the release characteristics of chocolate from the molds For example, vertical elements are best if not perfectly vertical, but slope outwards a fraction of a degree to make the release easier.

I would also ask the manufacturers of vacuum-forming equipment. They will have many of the answers you seek. Don't look for inexpensive hobby models. Look for models used by volume production shops and feature high vacuum draws.

Hope this helps.

Geetha:

You can expect to spend at least $5000 for a set of 100 custom "professional" polycarbonate molds. The main cost is going to be making the injection mold master. This is tooled in metal and is made so that the molten polycarbonate plastic can be forced into the mold. As you might imagine, a mirror-smooth finish is required on the mold surfaces in order to deliver the perfectly shiny results on your bars.

You are right - they are much more durable than the thin thermoform molds you are familiar with. Which is best for your depends on many factors.

One option to consider is that there are tabletop thermoforming machines that cost well under $1000 that can handle plastic sheets at least as large as for a standard mold. The tooling costs for making a master for use in one of these machines is much, much lower than for an injection mold and you can make new molds for a few dollars apiece. Thermoform plastic sheets come in a variety of thicknesses, so you can choose between different thicknesses for different reasons - thinner plastic might resolve finer detail better, thicker plastic is more durable.

I looked into this for one project, and it cost about the same to buy the thermoform machine as it did to have someone do the work. They would make the master from a computer CAD (CNC) file we sent them, but if you have a local machine shop they might be able to help. (Or go to a technical training institute where the teach such stuff and see if you can get a teacher to get a student to do it for you ... not for free, of course.)

Darlene:

There aren't many 3-6 pound tempering machines in the market. TheChocovision Rev 1 or 2 will hold maybe 2-3 pounds with a "holey" baffle, and the ACMC machines are about the same size. Next step up in capacity (and price) is 10 pounds.

As for Tricor. These are temper meters. They are expensive devices used in large production situations where knowing precisely what the temper of the chocolate is. These devices cost many, many times what a Chocovision or ACMC temperer will cost. As someone who is starting out, you are better off learning how to temper by hand so that you can know what properly tempered chocolate is. If you were a very large plant using holding tanks containing thousands of pounds of chocolate then one of these Tricor meters would be a good thing to have.

Here is an on-line source . Not that you should buy from them (I don't know anything about them), but it will give you an idea of pricing. 25lbs gets you down to $5.99/lb. You should easily be able to match this from a local source.

Also - as with most things in the chocolate biz. Freshness is key. Look at packaging and let them know you plan to return them if they are not strictly fresh.

Nutty Guys web site is down ...

Address is (or was):
3528 W 500 South ste a
Salt Lake City, UT 84104

Most people don't know that there is a very long history of cacao in the Philippines. Until recently, with chocolate made from beans from Davao I don't think many people knew that cacao even grew in the Philippines.

Is there some particular interesting history in the beans you're growing? And what part of the Phillipines are you growing in?

Eddie:

Can you please provide some more details about specifics of Colombian cocoa? In order to make good chocolate you have to start out with good cocoa.

Does Coinex operate in a specific province (I know that Santander grows the most cocoa, followed by Huila and then Arauca), what sorts of varietals you're working with, what is typical of your post-harvest processing processes to improve quality. You mention some of the lowest manufacturing costs - I assume that is chocolate - but what is the differential between the price at the gate, the local market price, and the price the exporter pays - and then receives?

I know the Colombian government is committed to a vast expansion of the cocoa industry in the next decade, growing production from 42,000MT in 2006 to over 200,000MT in 2020.

Thanks,
:: Clay

If you're looking for a folding bar wrapper, Solis' suggestion is exactly right on - any decent printer should be able to do one for you. Heck, the Mast Bros buy paper that is already print it, cut it to size, and slap labels on the wrapped bars.

Alufoil is probably the best place in the country to get foil bar wrappers. Lots of colors and weights and they do send free sample books.

What kind of packaging do you want to put your macarons in? Clear plastic?

Why don't you consider clear plastic tubes like these from Qualita? Koerner was also showing similar macaron packaging last year.

What format of wrapper are you looking for? A foldover like the ones Scharffen Berger or the Mast Bros use? Or is there some special requirement?

From the Toytown site:

The square shape is actually patented at the German Patent & Trademark Office, rather unusually in fact.

Traditionally geometric shapes are excluded from such protection, unless a brand can prove that the buying public only associates their brand with that particular shape.

After tons of research and consumer tests showing customers square bars, with neutral packaging, no packaging, even with Milka lilac packaging with a cow on it, the public still saw square as equalling Ritter Sport.

That's the basis of the design patent. In US law such a determination would probably not stand as consumer perception is not the basis for patentability.

The key information in this page is the following as it refers to the mark:

Mark Drawing Code: Drawing/Design + Words
Design Search:Plain single line squares (Geometric figures and solids - Squares)

This particular trademark registration (which expires this month) is for a logotype, not for the box or packaging format.

While I am pretty confident that Ritter Sport is not high on the list of chocolates that many ChocolateLife members eat on a regular basis, it turns out that recent legal actions being brought by the multinational company - and not against chocolate makers but against retailers - could have a profound affect on how chocolate is produced and marketed in Europe and beyond.

You see, Ritter appears to think it has a trademark on the square.

At least when it comes to chocolate packaging.

And they appear to believe that people walking into a store will be confused when they see brands as Akesson, Domori, and more, in square boxes.

I am fairly confident that anyone looking to buy Domori is not going to be confused into buying Ritter just because the bars are the same shape - just as I am confident that someone looking to purchase a Ritter Sport bar is not likely to be confused into buying Akesson - especially when they see the price difference.

Things might be different if Ritter were actually going after the chocolate makers. But they're not. They're going after retailers. In addition to fines (reportedly US$6,000 for a first "offense" and US$30,000 for repeat "offenders") there is also the theoretical possibility that Ritter could refuses to supply "repeat offender" retailers with Ritter product going forward.

Is it possible to trademark a shape as common as a square? Also, if my memory serves me correctly, all Ritter Sport bars are flow wrapped and I know Akesson and Domori come in boxes.

Will people really be confused?

While Ritter have claimed they are only interested in asserting their rights over their packaging in Germany they do sell worldwide so there is always the possibility that they could go after American companies (notably Tcho) for the same reason.

Bertil Akesson tells me that he and Domori (which is owned by Illy, a fairly large company) are working together to fight these cases.

How can you help? You can start by taking a poll that I've added to the Facebook page for TheChocolateLife .

You can vote directly by clicking on one of the radio buttons, but you can also leave a comment (and vote) by clicking on the title of the poll or by clicking here . (You have to be a Facebook member to vote.) And - while you're at it, why don't you "like" TheChocolateLife and add it to your Favorite pages?

We will keep you posted here of any updates as they are revealed to me.

Also, I am looking for someone fluent in German who is interested in doing some translation work. I don't know the exact language of the papers being served to the retailers and it's not possible to rely on machine translation for the nuances of such.

Please keep us posted!

Maybe. I am not convinced. Go for it. Make one and let us know.

There is also the potential to embed small pieces of concrete in the bean that you won't be able to remove via winnowing. That may just be a matter of the type of concrete used - perhaps you could use some sort of resin binder.

Ben:

I am familiar with this project and have, in fact, tried to contact the Full Belly Project about them. My concern is that roasted cocoa beans are a lot more delicate than peanuts (what cracking cocoa beans is closer to is removing the reddish paper shell that sticks to the nut, not the outer shell) and that it would be difficult to gently crack the cocoa without breaking them into very small bits - which is exactly what we're trying to avoid.

:: Clay

Deborah -

The grid is on the bottom - the output side of the grinding mechanism. My guess is that it's necessary to remove the grid to allow unimpeded flow of the cracked beans. If you don't mind a mess (or can shroud it otherwise - this is a short test), you might be able get away with not using the bottom cover.

Worse comes to worse let me know and I will see about getting a replacement for you.

: Clay

On a related note, John Nanci over at Chocolate Alchemy has finally published a photo for his new winnower - the Aether - that uses a Champion juicer as a bean cracker. I don't have a juicer at the moment, so I was wondering is there are any ChocolateLife members who do have one - and who also have a Crankandstein - who'd like to experiment with using their Champion to crack roasted cocoa beans and compare the difference in the cracking efficiency between the two with us.

In particular, I am interested in knowing about the consistency in sizing and the percentage of very large pieces with shell still attached.

A ChocolateLife member in Hawaii recently sent me pictures of a Brazilian-made coffee sheller that they've been using in a lab in the University of Hawaii to crack cacao beans for winnowing.

One of the things that makes this device interesting (apart from the fact that it should be inexpensive) is that the gap is adjustable. If so, this could address one of the issues that many people have with the Crankandstein, which is that because the gap is fixed (and narrow) it results in over-cracking the beans and a lot of small particles and dust.

Here are some pictures of the unit:

I am asking any member of TheChocolateLife in Brazil if

a) they know anything about these coffee shellers
b) can try them out on roasted beans and let us know how they work (photos, please!)
c) let us know how much they cost
d) be willing to help (translate) to see if it's worth trying to bring them here to the US.

Thanks,
:: Clay

Water-based ganaches are nothing new - I have personally known about them (and have made them) for at least six or seven years. I have also known people who have been making them for a lot longer (it's where I learned about them). So Damian Allsop is not at the vanguard of anything - he's just doing a good job of PR in a market that is unaware of the history of this area.

Cream has a flavor, and while fats do a good job of transporting flavor, the flavor of the cream (and other dairy) will mask other flavorings in the ganache. The fat in the dairy helps with emulsification, so it requires more work to create a stable emulsion with just water. Immersion blenders are just the trick here - doing it by hand is not the way to go.

One thing the article got wrong was the idea of a chocolate and water shell. There is no reason to do this and, technically, it won't work. Another thing the article confuses is conflating ganaches with mousses. There's no reason to add egg to a ganache. Most knowledgeable people will know that, but people with less experience might try to figure out how to add eggs to a ganache.

Another thing to consider is the solvent used to extract flavoring.

Take a cinnamon stick, for example. You'll get different flavor components with water, oil, and alcohol extractions that can deliver a far more expressive version of cinnamon than any one (and water is the one on the tongue). If I were working on a new cinnamon-scented water-based ganache I would look to blend my own extract of cinnamon from a variety of solvents. This technique can be applied to any number of herbs and spices.

Antinino:

Take a look at the company Grand-Place. In another forum one of their people mentioned that they had developed a compound that is very difficult to tell from regular chocolate. As the company also operates out of Vietnam (they are headquartered in Belgium) cost and temperature concerns are important to them.

There is no real fundamental reason why a dark compound coating should not have a strong chocolate flavor.

Coating is usually used for a technical reason (the higher melt point) or because of price considerations (it's cheaper) or both.

From one of your other questions I am going to infer that the higher melt point of compound is a main reason you're using it.

If you're using a dark coating then the simple answer is to buy a better coating. There are some that are very difficult to tell apart from bulk chocolates.

If you're using white or colored compound the answer is to add very small amounts of a very good chocolate essential oil flavoring. If you do that it's very important to make sure the coating is at a high enough temperature (100F at least) and do a very good job of incorporating the flavoring oil. If you don't it can leave streaks and deliver uneven flavor.

You can also use the chocolate flavoring oil in the dark compound if you are having trouble locating a better tasting dark compound.

However, Lynn and Antonino are essentially correct: the chocolate flavor will probably not be as "good" as if you used real chocolate because the oil is likely to be one-noted. However, the chocolate flavor will be more intense.

Not all of us live in places or cater to markets that can afford to use expensive or real chocolate. While there is no way to turn a shrimp into lobster, we can work as hard as we can to make the shrimp the best it can possibly be.

Dave:

PM to compare notes? I'd bet that there are a lot of people here on TheChocolateLife who would like to know about making the transition from a convection oven to a drum roaster (gas or electric). Also, curious, interested in knowing some more about the oven ... full/half size pans, number of racks, rough price? Don't need the brand.

Antonino - It's all time versus temperature. Are you saying that when the gas roaster is set for the same temperature as the convection oven (was set to) that the results are very different? How? Lighter roast, darker roast?

Also, Antonino - when was the last time you checked the temperature of your (home) convection oven with a good thermometer? Are you sure the temp is what the oven thinks and says it is?

:: Clay

Most people I have ever seen make a ganache avoid the problem by not starting out with melted tempered chocolate.There's no technical requirement to use melted tempered chocolate to make a ganache.

Of course, Cathy's answer is a very good one if, for some reason, you feel it's important (or easier) to use melted tempered chocolate. A cold bowl can precipitate crystal formation on the surface of the bowl before the bowl warms up. Slightly warming the surface of the bowl (with a hairdryer, as Cathy says - there are other ways) will keep that from happening.

Technically, there's also no requirement to even use melted chocolate. The heat from the cream or whatever liquid you're using to make the ganache should be enough to melt the (solid tempered) chocolate and cool the liquid down at the same time. If you do want to use melted chocolate then you can use melted chocolate, not tempered melted chocolate.

Another way: pour the warm liquid into the bowl and allow it a few seconds to warm the bowl. Then pour the melted tempered chocolate into the liquid. No separate warming step required.

Another thing you might want to consider is the fact that the heat of the mass of the warm chocolate with the warm liquid should be enough to remelt any chocolate crystals that have formed on the cool bowl. Thoroughly scraping the bowl with a spatula to dislodge any crystals and work them into the warm mass should melt them. Just let the mass sit for a minute before starting to mix, starting in straightaway with a spoon or balloon whisk won't do it.

You might also consider using an immersion blender. I use one for all my ganaches as it significantly reduces the risk of the ganache breaking. The blender does a much better job of creating a stable emulsion than mixing by hand in my experience. The immersion blender should be able to incorporate any small seeds evenly in the ganache.

Craig:

Why are you concerned? Your ganache is going to set in part because of the crystallization of the chocolate - but you're not worrying about it being "in temper" because it never will because of the other fats added.

Now, if your bowls came out of the freezer it might be a problem but at normal working temps it should not be an issue.

:: Clay

Dale -

If you go to the Good Food Awards site and look at the entry guidelines they should provide all the information you need. If not, contact the organizers by sending e-mail to info (at) goodfoodawards (dot) org.

Please also note that the September 1st entry deadline refers to the 2011 awards. The entry date for 2012 is August 31st.

There are no recommended standard angles for food or for the number of light sources.

Often, there is a very large softbox (diffused light source) which is designed to mimic a natural (i.e., sun coming through a high north window) light source. Lamps/flash are preferred by many studio photographers because the color temperature and output is consistent throughout a shoot. Flash units are often used because they generate less heat - useful when photographing food. In the architectural model work we did in the studio it was almost all hot lights.

Now you have ambient overall lighting covered. The next questions are how big is what you're shooting and what to do you want to emphasize? So, there's generally at least one "key" light that is "flagged" (to keep the light off parts of the scene you don't want illuminated). Instead of another light, depending on the effect you're looking for, you might have one or more "bounce" cards that take the ambient light and reflect it into the scene to reduce contrast.

As I alluded to earlier, if you don't have a view camera so that you can really master depth of field effects, you want to stop down as far as you can and make sure that everything in the scene is tack sharp. Then you can go back into Photoshop (or similar) and add the depth-of-field focus effects after, if desirable.

I agree with you that use a standardized reference color target makes an enormous amount of sense, as is using a white card to set white balance - especially when you are shooting film. These days, however, the auto-correct feature in many programs these days is so good that it'll take care of 95% of situations. Without a recognizable iconic color in the scene (we used to shoot a Kodak box on the first frame of every roll for this purpose) then the most important things in the image (technically):

a) no motion from the camera
b) tack-sharp focus, at least on the key element(s) of the scene
c) a pure black (RGB 0,0,0) somewhere in the scene
d) a pure white (RGB 255,255,255) somewhere in the scene
e) clean whites (i.e., whites without a noticeable color cast)

Of course, any or all of these "rules" can be broken - if and when you know what you're doing and WHY you're breaking them.

I don't have any samples of tabletop work - I do very little of it. Early on in my career I first-assisted for two of the best in NYC, one who specialized in architectural models. I realized that my interests in photography lay elsewhere, but I absorbed a lot about the techniques.

You can see some of my very recent work at my personal web site, www.claygordon.com .

Kat:

Tabletop product photography is its own special art form. It used to be that special lenses were required to manipulate depth of field, but these days as long as the entire image is sharp, Photoshop and plugins can take care of most view camera type effects.

The one place where I think people tend to underestimate their needs is in lighting equipment and in understanding that literal representation is not what it's about, it's about interpretation. In looking at some of your photos, what I miss is contrast range. There are neither pure whites (what used to be called "paper white" when people actually printed negatives on paper) and pure blacks - the contrast range is compressed. Of course, to work with chocolate you need cold lighting, so the new generation of LED lights is just what you need.

If you want to go small-scale there is a cool iPad app called SoftBox you might look into. You can use it (running on an iPad) as a light table and then with two more iPads you have a small - extremely portable and surprisingly flexible - lighting studio.

But mostly it's about attitude and style, which takes practice and editing. In this day and age of essentially unlimited storage, people have gotten out of the habit of deleting photos. To improve, you have to be a relentless editor, trashing every photo that doesn't "work." That's my experience, anyway. (I have a BFA in Photo from Rhode Island School of Design and it was one discipline I learned then that I practice to this day. I ruthlessly edit my photos and delete the ones that don't measure up.)

While you personally have a "style" I don't sense that style coming through in your photographs. What is the "Kat style" and how does it translate into photos? It takes practice. Lots of it. With enough, setting things up will become instinctual.

Jim:

Perhaps you should also add to the list of criteria for your example .... a co-op that did not accept outside aid. Many of the purported benefits of "fair trade" certifications come about because some external group - some NGO or often USAID (especially in Peru) - covers both the upfront and on-going costs of certification.

When you eliminate outside aid from the equation you'll see that there are very few instances where it has happened from the grower up.

Sebastian brings up a very interesting point, which is that maybe it makes more sense for small chocolate makers to get together into a PURCHASING co-op rather than forcing the growers to organize. By doing so, the purchasing co-op drives larger volume purchases, which can start driving the critical mass of volume necessary to move away from commodity market pricing to specialty market quality, and the higher prices quality can command.

A purchasing co-op could also work to reduce the costs of transportation, one of the key limiters to supporting small specialty growers - there's never a full container.

David:

Thanks for bringing up an interesting point. The whole idea of Fairtrade (or Fair Trade) is that there is an independent agency who vouches for the practices of the actors in the supply chain.

While I know Felchlin very well (and happen to be the person who introduced the owner of the Hacienda Elvesia where the beans for the 74% Cru Hacienda are sourced to Felchlin) and I can similarly vouch for their standards when it comes to bean sourcing, at the consumer level (not at the level of the truly knowledgeable chocolate professional) people are looking for the Fairtrade (or "Fair" trade) certification so they don't have to think.

So while you and I may know what Felchlin's practices mean, the consumer wants to see the logo and no matter how hard you try to convince them that it doesn't apply - they won't listen. They need to see the logo.

Of course, it's because they don't have to think that the value of the certification is so easily undermined, but that's another issue.

:: Clay

Brian:

I responded because I have seen and tasted product from Naranjillo. While I would not buy the chocolate they make for domestic consumption, the liquor, powder, and butter are of good quality.

They can make chocolate to spec but the minimums are at least 5 tonnes, as I recall, based on my last conversations with them.

They mean well, but I fear it's the nature of co-operative management in Peru, Bolivia, and elsewhere.

From personal experience, I can tell you that working from the US with Naranjillo is extremely difficult. Customer service did not exist as a concept in their English vocabulary.

Plus, Naranjillo didn't have (as of about six months ago) any export capability for finished and semi-finished products to the US.

Maybe things have gotten better in the last six months or so. In any event, I would not want to work with them unless I had a representative in Peru, fluent in Spanish and in business customs, handling the Peruvian end of the business for me. I can't recommend doing it remotely.

ChocolateLife member Jan van Portvliet sent me the following question last week:

I am using the revolation delta. Great machine for what I do.

I have a question though and you might be able to give me an answer.

There are two tempering sets,tempering 1 and tempering 2. Tempering 1 goes back to the working temperature and tempering 2 first goes to the colder temperature and then heats up to the working temperature.

What is thedifference between the two?

I sent the question off to Chocovision and got the following response:

There are two temper modes; Temper 1 and Temper 2.

The Temper 1 cycle takes the chocolate from the set melt point to the set temper point. The Temper 2 cycle takes the chocolate from the set melt point to 3.5 degrees (F) below it, and then warms it to the set temper point.

In scientific terms, taking the temperature down allows the beta, alpha, and gamma crystals to nucleate more rapidly. Bringing the chocolate to the end temperature not only stops the nucleation of the alpha and gamma crystals but also melts out any alpha and gamma that have not transformed into beta crystals.

In a nutshell, Temper 2 gives more time (and better temperature conditions) for beta crystals to develop. Higher milk fat in chocolates inhibits beta crystal nucleation so Temper 2 is important to utilize, hoewever, it would over-thicken a chocolate that has no ingredient to inhibit crystal growth.

The First All-Americas Craft Chocolate Festival in being held in NYC on Friday and Saturday September 23rd and 24th, 2011.

Held in conjunction with Get Real NY's All-American Craft Beer & Food Fest, the Craft Chocolate Festival's mission is to highlight and promote all of the exciting work being done by craft chocolate makers anywhere in the Americas (USA, Canada, Caribbean, Central and South America).

This year, the flavor "theme" of the Beer Fest's homebrew competition will be cocoa.

There will be five tasting sessions during the two day festival, two on Friday and three on Saturday. In addition to sampling chocolates matched with the beers being served, a demonstration of making chocolate, from the bean, will be operated continuously during the festival.

The tasting session on Saturday morning will feature guided pairings of craft chocolate, craft beer, cheese, bacon, hot chocolate, and more.

There are several ways craft chocolate makers can participate:

1. Provide samples for tasting . Festival organizers will be organizing tasting tables during each session. Send us samples and literature and we will distribute them both for you. (Approximately 600 people are expected at each of the four main tasting sessions.)
2. Provide chocolate for sale . You provide the chocolate (on consignment at wholesale) and we'll sell it during the festival and through TheChocolateLife during and after the Fest through the 2011 holiday season).
3. Visit New York during the festival and give one of the four "Meet The Chocolate Maker" seminars (one during each of the four main sessions). You can also man the table during the session(s) your chocolate is sampled. Your presence at the festival will be promoted in festival advertising and signage.
4. Become an event sponsor . Your company name will be promoted in advertising, signage, and more before and during the Festival. You don't have to be a craft chocolate maker to become an event sponsor. Do you make and sell equipment, services, or ingredients that craft chocolate makers use? Then consider being a sponsor.

If you are interested in participating in any of the four ways mentioned above (or some other way that's not mentioned), get in touch with Clay Gordon at claygordon (at) thechocolatelife (dot) com for more information and details.

Watching this page and visit the Fest's listing page here on TheChocolateLife for updates and more about this exciting first-of-its-kind Festival.

If any ChocolateLife member owns a Cacao Cucina roaster, I am interested in getting

1. overall impressions of your experience with them
2. the dimensions (length and diameter) of the drum

Thanks,
:: Clay

Rochelle:

I recommended, for a client, a Moffat Turbofan D25. The D25 (not sure about the (D24) can be plumbed so you can inject steam into the cavity during roasting. Salmonella (in particular) can survive longer in dry environments than they can in moist ones.

Though getting the beans hot and keeping them there should kill all pathogens there has to be a reason why virtually every major chocolate manufacturer has a sanitization step the includes steam. There's no reason not to be err on the side of caution and food safety. Pressing the steam button for five seconds at least two or three times during a roast should be enough. If you are taking the pans out and rotating them (not a bad idea, along with shaking them, too), then do the steam after each turn.

The Moffats are good ovens and they quickly recover temperature after opening the doors.

Looking at the replies to the post, if Sebastian gives it a thumbs up then I would pay very close attention.

Rochelle -

You are right. I was hurried and misread the page. It's $4835 for about 13kg - but an extra $1350 for a control panel?

These are built to order and it says that they reserve the right to make changes (including the oven), so I wonder if this is like the big CocoaT grinder? It's still on the site but they're no longer offering it.

:: Clay

I just took a look on the CocoaTown site and it looks like they no longer offer a 15kg roaster. Their new 30kg roaster looks like a convection rotisserie oven with a custom basket. Hmmmm ...