Forum Activity for @Mike3

I remember reading somewhere that there are time/temperature plots for thermal death rates of various organisms on cocoa beans, but I can't find it now.  Can anyone point me in the direction of these?

Asking because I'm switching my roasting from sheet pans in a convection oven to a drum roaster that will allow the introduction of steam (not superheated though, just adding water to a very hot oven). and I'm looking for a baseline for 1) how long to expose beans to steam for effective thermal death, and 2) if i don't use steam what time and temp to expose the beans for a log 5 kill. I'll be roasting 60 lbs of beans at a time.

I know there are lots of variable to consider, so am looking for general direction at this point.

Thanks in advance!

Mike

12C? That is probably way too cold for your chocolate. Try getting them to within a few degrees of your chocolate temp. It might help to get an IR thermometer to check the mould temp just prior to moulding.

Can you clarify---is it the air side or the mold side that gets streaks? If its the air side it might be too much air flow/turbulence.

A good way to decide is to figure out A) if sales for you is their only gig, and B) if so, what would be a decent monthly "salary" to make it worth it for them. From there, figure out what % of your sales gets them to that point. For example, if the sales person wanted to make $5000 a month, and you offered 10%, they'd need to sell $50,000 a month. If they have other sources of income, then less might be acceptable to them. It will also depend on how much responsibility you want to give them and what your production capacity is (if you can't produce $50,000 worth of chocolate, then recalculate based on what you can make).

Ultimately you will have to just put an offer out there and negotiate based on individual needs.

If I had a set up to make a 75% chocolate that allowed me to roll refine a ~50:50 mixture of coarse liquor and sugar, then had a separate machine to refine the rest of the nibs to their final particle size, rheologically speaking, would it be worth it (i.e., would viscosity be noticeably reduced), compared to refining all on the machine capable of handling high fat refining, assuming they are made such that moisture levels in the finished chocolate are the same.

Will the cocoa butter still be squeezed out if the paste (or the rollers) is at a lower temperature? My goal with a three roll mill is to control particle size (and stay within my budget), and refining on anything else would either lessen that control or exceed my budget. That, and I was hoping to avoid more hairy messes

I don't have any plans for a 100% bar, but I wanted to use that as an extreme example. I typically do 75% bars, but it sounds like even at that fat % it would be a big mess. I know other companies are making 70--75% bars using a 3 roll refiner (using just nibs and sugar)---is the trick to getting that to work just mixing a sugar/liquor mix with the appropriate fat % and refining the remaining nibs in a different machine altogether before combining all in a conche?

With the fat content you mention, would it be impossible to refine a 100% (liquor only) chocolate on a 3 roll refiner, or would I just need to decrease the temperature of the paste being fed in to keep viscosity higher?

Thanks for the feedback. I will eventually have a mill to produce liquor, so then I'd just need a big mixer to combine it with sugar. Would a large Hobart type stand mixer do the job (~50 lbs at a time) or would I just burn it out? I guess I could always mix by hand and just have one really strong forearm

Hello, can someone tell me if it is required to pre refine nibs and sugar prior to running through a three roll refiner (e.g., one with 6 x 12 rolls)? If so, what is the desired particle size for the paste prior to feeding the refiner?

I realize there are likely many different models with differing capabilities, so I just want to know what is most common for small-ish roll refiners, assuming I'd like my final particle size to be in the neighborhood of 25 microns.

I'm considering switching, and I have a mill to pre grind the nibs, but not the granulated sugar (crystal size is 0.3 - 0.8 mm).

Thanks

I've been recently searching for an affordable source for chocolate bar boxes. I have received a few quotes and the pricing seems really high (almost a dollar per box when buying 1000 pieces without any printing). The box style i'm looking for is like what Patric used to use, or like Ritual Chocolate style boxes. I've gone through the discussions here and called a few of the companies suggested, but most only do truffle style boxes.Any suggestions would be appreciated.

These guys could probably do it for you: www.flairpackaging.com

If it needs to be a custom job, then be prepared to spend a few thousand dollars, at least.

good luck!

Also, if you can find it, Moffat makes (or used to) cookie racks for their ovens that allow 8 full sized sheet pans. Or you can just add some simple brackets to achieve the same thing. I did it for mine and the temp distribution throughout is pretty uniform.

Can anyone tell me the gap size between the blades and wall of a Frisse or Thouet type conche?

Thanks

I looked them up and found their website but not much more: http://www.femagagro.com/

As far as I know, they don't make the power twist in the size required by the ECGC-65 (at least they didn't when I bought my replacement belts).

I concur though that for the santha's they are a must.

This same thing happened to me after just a handful of batches. Its my experience that the folks at CocoaTown will do and say anything to not have to replace the belts on their machines. I ended up buying replacements from http://www.royalsupply.com/store/pc/viewcategories.asp (you will need to get the number off your belt to make sure you get the right size).

Good Luck!

I guess i lucked out on buying it as part of a package! I do remember when I had the electrician installing it, he opened it up and said "That looks expensive." I guess he was right.

Seems like you're not going this route, but for the record, the one i have is nearly silent except for a high pitched noise (like the sound old TV's used to make, but a little bit louder). The selmi vibrating table is much louder by comparison.

Hey Melanie, I've been running my Selmi Plus off a Phase Perfect digital phase converter for two years with no issues. Here's their website: http://www.phaseperfect.com/ Don't know how their prices compare to other brands because I bought mine used. You should have your electrician help you pick out the model that suits your needs.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. The design of the Cocoatown grinders are what's driving me to look at pre-grinders to begin with.

It looks like the peanut butter machines are single pass types, more similar to an espresso grinder, so there shouldn't be any large particles in the output. I think I need to go buy some grind-my-own peanut butter and see what comes out.

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I can't get around straining, but I am still interested in the time savings I'd get with the pregrinder + cocoatown set up. I'm making around 100 lbs a week, and that will go up if I can cut down the processing time.

Brad--I'm glad you chimed in because your set up is part of what got me thinking about alternative refining/grinding methods. Can you clarify though---with your refiners, how do chunks make it through? Or is there so much left inside after running a batch through, you need to scrape out the insides where there are nibs in various degrees of refinement? I picture these refiners and pregrinders as similar to my espresso grinder (a commercial burr grinder), where anything that doesn't fit through the set gap size doesn't come out the other end.

Thanks Ben and Sebastian for your replies. Ben, thanks for posting the video link, I'd seen it before and it does look like peanut butter, but I'd like to know if chunks come through, or if the paste is a uniform particle size.

Sebastian--I'd be running just nibs through the pre-grinder prior to loading them in a Cocoatown refiner. My budget pretty much limits me to buying an Olde Tyme nut butter grinder, like the one in the video Ben posted. With the Cocoatown, no matter how much scraping I do, there always seems to be a few nibs that don't get refined and have to be strained out prior to molding. A pre-grinder, so long as no chunks come through, would eliminate the straining step. Knowing the particle size would help me determine how much refining time I'd save with pre-grinding.

Hi All,

I'm considering adding a pre-grinder to my set up (probably a nut butter type), but I'm wondering if any one out there already using one can tell me what particle size you get after a single pass through? Is it the same particle size you'd get running peanuts through it?

Thanks,

Mike

It is true that we shouldn't care about what they say they are paying, but the members of this community are the only ones that are going to catch that type of exaggeration, one which would otherwise leave the general public thinking the Mast Brothers are saints pouring money on poor farmers, which could potentially sway consumers to choose them over X, Y, or Z chocolate brand....exaggerating a fishing story is one thing, but it is a little different when you're talking about what your business does (remember the debate over whether TCHO is bean to bar?).

I also agree with Jim that there is no reason to dig up dirt, but the statement was made in public, so to me its fair game to pick apart, as long as everything stays factual.

For what its worth, I paid $11 for a bar of their single origin Dominican Republic in Los Angeles, one of the only places I have seen it in my area (not that I have scoured the state for it, but its not for sale in my town).

If they are paying those prices, and its true that they process about 1 full bag a day (~50,000lbs/year; according to an interview--I need to get a reference for it though), that is a lot of money per year to shell out, especially when picking it up by sail boat!

I picked up some deep fryer cleaner (sodium hydroxide-based) today from smart and final and used it at 1 cup per 1 gallon water and it worked great. it doesn't list concentration of NaOH. its not the cheapest stuff at $10/gallon but its worth the $1 in cleaning materials to not have to cotton ball all of my molds.

Yes, that does make more sense --- now to figure out what to do with half a gallon of janitorial strength ammonium hydroxide Glad this got sorted out before i started looking for the stronger stuff (I used to work with concentrated NH4OH at my old job and it fumes when you open the bottle...nasty stuff to use even with a fume hood.)

Well, the ammonium hydroxide i found locally apparently wasn't strong enough. Its 10% according to the label, and I started with very weak solution and increased the concentration until I literally couldn't stand to breath the fumes (even tried a few drops of full strength and that didn't do the trick). The result was that the chocolate/cocoa butter was dissolved, but instead of staying in solution it coated my molds completely when i took them out to rinse.

Brad/Ben---you're the only two that have confirmed using NH4OH, what concentration are you buying off the shelf?

They are called Kissner

Thanks Brad. I think I found some locally, hope its strong enough!

Thanks for the reply Brad. I have a background in chemistry, so I was picturing ammonium hydroxide (lab grade, caustic), but then realized I couldn't find it as a cleaner so I thought maybe it was a nomenclature thing since NH3 + H2O <-> NH4OH.

I did find a company in Canada that supplies it, but only in Canada (unless I buy a truckload!). I will keep looking, but anyone in the US that can offer tips on a source, please let me know (I know of most of the lab supply houses, but they are generally pretty expensive when you want very pure/food grade solutions).

-Mike

For those of you using ammonium hydroxide--are you buying it from a lab supply company or using ammonia from the hardware store? I tried some dilute ammonia and it didn't really cut the cocoa butter much, but i was worried about ruining my molds by using higher strength.

thanks

mike

Tom,

Is this 3-way valve something that can be added to a Selmi Plus? I have a lot of problems with dosing inaccuracies.

sent you an email, Brian.

thanks

Hi Todd, I actually come through the SF area every few months. Next trip, if I haven't found one, I will email you. Thanks for the offer!

-Mike

Hi all, posting to ask if there are any of you in the Southern California area that use a Selmi tempering machine who would be willing to let me see it in action in person. I'm very interested in buying one, but I would rather not fly to NY to see the showroom demo. Also, if anyone knows of a shop in Southern California using one, please let me know, and I can try to contact them directly.

Edit: I wanted to clarify that I don't need to touch the machine, just see how it works.

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,

Mike

Seems like the most cost effective way is to send samples to a lab that already has the expensive equipment, then pay them per sample. Unless you have hundreds of samples, it will be orders of magnitude cheaper than buying analytical gear (sebastian's $30k estimate is for just one machine, but what about everything needed to support that machine (computers, reagents, glassware...?) You might be able to save some money by going to a college chemistry department and asking if any labs have the equipment you need, they might run a sample or two for free for you....

good luck!

Cheers,

Mike