Forum Activity for @Thomas Forbes

How might some of this high price chocolate relate to price growers would get for dry cacao beans. From what I learned last summer in the Dominican Republic, the basic earnings for fermented quality cacao is around US $.90 - $1.00/lb. The summer before it was more than .50lb. Certified organic and/or fair trade will take it up another .15-20lb. I was able to find two cases where up to US$2.00 was being paid for cacao which is harvested, fermented and dried exceptionally. I met a number of people who have nurseries and are growing a number of genetic varieties for different characteristics. The larger producers have been improving genetic quality on some farms for some time and some of the smaller producers have started to convert small parts of their farms to these new varieties.

Is it unreasonable to think a farmer could get US$3-5/lb for dry cacao from select genetics and everything else done to precision? What do people pay for the best Criollo coming out of Venezuela or Nacional out of Equador or Peru? I know what it costs me to buy beans or liquor from the DR in the US. How much would a $100 bar of chocolate relate to an increase in price for the cacao?

I know of three people who are making a farm to bar chocolate from the DR. SpagnVola, the Rizeks, and Diana Munne. It will be interesting to watch the quality and diversity of each improve and develop over time.

I am also torn at the thought of paying $100 for a bar of chocolate. The fact that much of the fine chocolate is turned into confections would expand the role of a chocolate critic or sommelier beyond the same in the wine industry. I am so new to understanding chocolate and the industry, I am unsure how someone would make a living as a chocolate sommelier beyond writing about it. Would it help people who are currently doing tasting and/or pairings? There are already professional tasters who are identified by the industrial chocolate industry; would the small artisan makers employ them in some manner?

The idea of aging chocolate in interesting. I find that letting my homemade chocolate sit for a month or two brings the bitterness down a notch.

Love reading your post Clay and your broadcasts on Heritage Radio.

Tom

I have settled in buying nibs or liquor and doing my own conch/grind ($600 machine), then temper ($530 machine) and mold ($200 so far). If you roast in your oven, crack in a big mortar pesto, winnow with a blow dryer and do a first grind in a champion juicer (I think $150), I think that is about as basic as you can go.

In the Dominican Republic the differential between fermented and unfermented cacao is called Hispanola and Sanchez respectively. I was wondering how do they differentiate in other countries around the world? I have read that somewhere between 12 and 15 percent of the cacao out of the DR is fermented. Other countries like Grenada all the cacao is fermented from what I have read. How are the different types of cacao labeled in other countries and which countries have more fermented cacao and why?

FYI There is a small town on the Samana Peninsula called Sanchez. From what Don Hector Rizek told me, because the cacao was shipped out of the town it was called Sanchez. I guess no one fermented Dominican cacao back then.

Does anyone know when fermentation started to develop in countries like the Dominican Republic and when the name Hispanola was first used?

This is one of my favorite sites and I have also learned a great deal here. I enjoy reading about what people are doing around the world related to cacao production and appreciate all the expertise I have found among the members and Clay. I have no complaints.

Farmers in the Dominican Republic who are members of farmer's cooperatives get the market price for the cacao. The benefits are access to fermentation centers, technical assistance, ability to get certified organic and 10% of the profits from the cooperative go back into community projects. No other real advantage from what I have learned so far. The major cacao producers are also establishing similar relationships with the more medium sized farms. There are other certifications which they qualify.

I will be looking closely on how cacao is graded coming out of the farm and the price differentials. From what I have seen so far, have control over harvesting and fermentation are the key components out of control of most chocolate makers working with Dominican beans. The Rizeks are probably more advanced on a large scale, in creating a fine cacao which can identified from the farm. I know there is sourcing for cacao beans at the cooperatives but do not know to what extent. So much of what everyone handles is bulk cacao and will looking at how higher graded cacao is sourced.

I do know of three other individuals/groups who are also harvesting, fermenting and handling the entire process up to chocolate in the DR and the US.

From what I have been told, the differential for fermented cacao is about US$800 per ton above commodity prices. Any price above that is news to me.

Mast Brothers do not use cocoa butter in their bars from their label and what they told me.

I also just read through the articles. Very interesting and well done.

I have not been out to visit the Mast brothers since last fall but have bought some of their bars since at a variety of locations. I like it but am still a novice. I also love what they are doing and hope to somewhat replicate what they are doing but working within the Dominican Republic. The whole pricing and grading thing will be closely examined on my next trip to the DR after having the ability to ask the right questions, primarily from participating on this board. Last summer I bought a 100 pound bag of fermented (Hispanola in the DR) beans from Cooproagro (formally block 1 of Conacado) for about US$190. The commodity price was around $3,000 at the time and farmers were getting around $144 for 100 lbs. for Sanchez which is unfermented and around $158 for fermented. All the fermentation, beyond a couple of farmers in the areas I work, is done by the bigger producers or the farmer cooperatives. Farmers are now encouraged to get the cacao wet to one of these fermentation centers but I still do not know how that is priced from the farmer's perspective. The price for cacao is pretty much the same whether a farmer is a member of a cooperative, associated with a major producer or sells independently from what I know. I will have more to add in July.

About a year ago I read an article somewhere and then saw a video on the Mast Brother's website about them bringing, I think 20 tons of beans from the DR to NYC on a sailing ship. Very interesting and on one of the bags I saw the name of the farmer's cooperative in the DR. About 3 weeks into my trip and after asking around at Conacado, I rode my motorcycle and found the Red de Guaneco and spoke with a women who manages the cooperative. Found out that there has been 5 or 6 Peace Corps volunteers who have worked with the community over the last decade and the last two or three focused on supporting the cooperative. US AID funded much of the construction of the buildings, fermentation boxes, and the plastic covered drying areas. They sell dried beans, and cacao powder which is processed for them in country, and she will make you hot chocolate to drink when you visit. It is a mini version of the blocks which feed into Conacado. There is a list of the 100 members of the Red and how much cacao each supply. I did not get details about grading and pricing but discussed their dealings with Mast Brothers and Taza where I also saw a video implying they developed and supported the farmers in this cooperative without mentioning Peace Corps or US AID.

The big players like Rizek, Roig, Munne, and Hermanos Cortes may also supply them quality beans but I seriously doubt the farmer is getting more than their $158 for 100 pounds (now it is less) of beans which are fermented in the cooperative. The cooperative then receives US$800 a ton more than the commodity price for Hispanola when sold on the open market.

I would love to know what Hector Rizek sells his beans for to Michel Cluizel for the Los Ancones bar which has the Rizek's ID'ed on the back. When you open up the book on chocolate sold in the store, a big picture of Don Rizek is on the first page looking over a couple workers on a farm.

I personally do not eat blue foods unless it is made with blueberries. For sweetening agents, I prefer those that have been pressed, or lightly processed rather than cooked. Honey, pure grade b maple syrup, agave and evaporated cane juice are my choices. I am unclear if any these can be added to chocolate being they are liquid. I have used pure cane sugar and honey powder so far and bought a stevia sweetened chocolate the other day which I did not like. My concern is taste and health. Presentation is important but not primary. I find I have to pay more if it has obviously taken more human labor.

When I look to buy chocolate bars, I prefer no lecithen for no reason than if it is not necessary, why use it. A minimal approach is preferred for my own personal consumption.

When I buy chocolates as a gift, I am more concerned about presentation, only after taste.

After Bryon Kirk's Sunday update, I guess we are eating pieces of cockroaches.

Thank you, after doing some searching on the web, I have learned something new. One company claims their cactus honey is made from bee's honey.

This has pure honey and maltodextrin listed has it's only ingredients. The company is Arizona Farm, cactus honey powder. I wish it was 100% honey.

I have found honey powder at Korean supermarkets in north New Jersey. I made a couple of batches of 75% and it turned out very nice. Can you get evaporated cane juice in powder or crystal form? I see this used on many vegan and other products sold at health food stores.

I found everyone's comments very interesting and educational. Let's just say, a very rare cacao. I like the idea of marketing the direct connect with the farmer and the hands-on in the post harvesting and processing. What knowledge all of you have shared will sure help me ask better questions as a wander cacao farms in the DR this summer. Thank you all.

I would love to see the presentation. Will you advertise when you will do it for public consumption?

From what I understand, the cooperatives pay the same price the family run businesses pay for cacao There is a RD$500 difference paid for fermented and not fermented. If I remember right, it comes to US$800 per ton. The advantage to joining a cooperative comes with the technical assistance, getting organically certified, availability of loans, and 10% goes into projects within communities of their members. This is the "fair trade" cacao which accounts for about 25% produced. How much is fermented, I do not know. Many of the medium sized farmers have the same relationship with the bigger family run business. They probably have the sustainability certifications. The cooperatives have the fermentation boxes; more and more is being brought in wet from the fields. I will see how the pricing for the wet cacao is calculated this summer.

I can only speak from my experiences in the Dominican Republic and chocolate makers and companies are rarely buying the bean directly from the farmer. I know of people who do work with the farm cooperatives and visit the location where fermentation and drying happen. They may visit some farms. I do not know if specific batches of beans are identified with specific farms at the cooperatives. From what I have seen, they are not unless specifically sourced for a specific client. I have seen the Rizek website and they are probably labeling beans with the farm from where the harvest comes from for the premium beans. Most of what is grown is not fermented and sold in the bulk market and/or used for butter and cake. I recently visited a chocolatier in Maryland who has their own cacao farm in the DR and they use their own beans in their shop. Unless you are going to directly buy from a farmer who will harvest, ferment and dry properly, and export licenses are obtained, you will probably find it difficult to identify your beans to a specific farm.

Discovered Eataly on 25th and Broadway in NYC last week. Nice selection of Italian chocolate and confections. Bought truffles and a Barbero bar, Santo Domingo 70%. $8.80 for 3.5 oz. Very good.

Since I was in the neighborhood, I passed by Burdick and said hello to a former student of mine who works there. Purchased a Venezuelan bar and a Bolivian bar which were fantastic.

Hit Black Hound on Friday and had a few truffles. The young women who waited on me was from Haitian ethnicity and when I showed her my chocolate paste, she said her Dad brings it back from the Dominican Republic when he goes. She also gave me a white chocolate truffle which I can do without next time.

Sunday my wife and I drove to Maryland and took a Chocolate 101 class with Crisoire Reid at Spag n Vola. Her husband Eric sat down with us and was very generous with his time and advice. His partner Justin does a nice tour of their operations and is very engaging. A groups of about 12 people made ganache, rolled truffles, table tempered, and dipped. I was their mostly to meet them and was very impressed with the quality of their chocolate. They have their own farm in the DR and have complete control from tree to bon bon. You must try it.

Today I visited Fika downtown in the financial district. You can watch the chocolatier mold through a glass window. I introduced myself and he was very nice and willing to spend to time speaking with me. Fika means coffee break in Swedish. Had three truffles and a sandwich.

Check out Jomart Chocolate. They offer a individual class that you can design with them. I think it was $240, so it isn't cheap and it looks like they focus on confections. Has anyone attended the La Maison workshops? They buy their base already made so they may have a video or something, but it appears to be more of a tasting.

I replied once and it didn't post, so here it is again. Passion fruit is my favorite and a latino market has guava juice and Caribbean cherry which were very good. Whole foods used to have a nice cherry juice which would go nice. I have reduced oranges and lemons. I want to try tamarindo and when I get back to the DR some zapote and guanbana and see how that turns out. Maybe banana would be fun. I will have to put some of these through my juicer and make my own cherry juice.

I have been making ganache using soy milk for the last few months. I generally use the vanilla flavor and often use different frozen fruit concentrates to make a pretty nice truffle. I use the same measurements recommended for creme or milk. 1 1/4 cup of liquid poured over 10 - 16 oz of chopped chocolate depending on how hard I want the ganache.

After buying a number of bars and making some myself the pricing thing is somewhat confusing. Probably the best prices I have found is at some of the Whole Foods. I generally convert to pounds in order for comparison. Much of the Lindt, Godiva and other brands generally sell in the low $20 a pound. Usually $4.00 for a 3 to 3.5 oz bar. Generally, the smaller higher quality producers are in the $40-$60 range. Most of these bars are somewhere between 2 and 3 oz. From what I see as far as pricing for beans, roasting, winnowing and grinding is around the $3 a lb range. Transport, customs another $1.50 or $3 depending on size and method. If you ship beans by the container, you may bring this down. You conche, age, temper and mold, maybe another $3 a lb. in costs. If you are doing high end chocolate, you probably have more waste in bean selection, testing and other factors I am unaware of thus far. As a small producer of lets say 25 tons a year you probably need to charge somewhere between $8 and $10 a pound wholesale to make a living working very slim. I assume that would put you your chocolate in the low $20's retail and if you can do something special you can get into the next level of pricing. I have found some of the expensive chocolate bars to be of the medium range as far as quality. I would love to hear from anyone who has traveled this road and adjust what I have discovered.

$10 million over five years will give you a few offices and a half a dozen employees. Not much will be done.

Right now Dominican cacao farmers are getting about US $80 dollars for a 100lbs of dried, unfermented cacao beans. $95 for fermented. Last summer it was $130 and $145 respectively. In order to really reward the farmer, I would argue they should receive a minimum of $150 and $200 per 100 lbs. and quality would be greatly enhanced. USAID should stop paying the consultants and set minimum floors on pricing for the small farmer. That way the 10 to 100 acre farms can stay in business. Otherwise the production of cacao will continue to be more and more under the control of 4 major producers.

At what point in the process is the grading of the bean happen? The closer to the farm, it seems it would be better for the farmer.

I used 8% butter and 60% paste. Used 10% milk powder and added after 12 hours and kept it in the machine for 20 hours total. Ended up 22% sugar. The batch ended up being a 4 lb, 10.5 ounces and generally am getting about 10 oz. lose with each batch from cleaning. That is probably high but I do not pick through every nook and cranny of the grinder and bowl, but do the best I can without making too much of a mess.

My milk chocolate people want more milk powder in it. It is still pretty dark.

I am also using the cocoa town melanger and made a dozen or so mirco batches and was not getting the smoothness I wanted. I ordered some cocoa butter and it really helps out with the texture. I started at 10-12 hour conches and raised it 20-24. I think I will go back to the 12 hour and see if more taste is maintained.

The new batch with the Cafiesa nibs and butter turned out pretty nice. Easier clean up and less waste. I took a pound and a half of it, untempered and sliced, along with 50 cherry based truffles rolled in coconut, 30 bon bons with the cherry ganache in the middle, and a half a pound of molded and tempered from my last batch, to school today and the students loved them. The more or less 70 nibs, 20 sugar and 10 butter is a little creamy for me and because it was water like it's consistency, I think 23 hours was too much.

Thank you everyone for the advice and input.

Thankyou. I just did a temper on another batch I did with some paste my wife just brought back from the DR. I tried the seed method for first time and had trouble getting all the seed to melt after I lowered the temp to 94 degrees. I guess it has to be grated rather than chopped. I haven't really liked the results of my table tempering lately and will have to soon get a machine.

The women I work with in the DR take about 4 lbs. of chocolate paste and boil in a big pot of water. The butter rises to the top and you spoon it off to capture it. What is left is thrown away. I did a small batch myself last summer in the DR and was able to get maybe 4 oz of butter from 24 oz of paste.

I bought 100 lbs of fermented beans from a farmer's cooperative to process with one group of women and had one of the local farmers ferment a 100lbs and the other group of women processed that. This batch was so bad I did not even bring any home with me. I asked the women to cook out the butter and they "said" they could not get any out. I ended up giving it to them and did not have to pay for the processing. Just lost out on $130 for the 100 lbs of beans.

When I got up this morning the chocolate in the machine was still very runny and after I got home from work it was at 23 hours. I will wait for it to cool down but it is much different then what I was making from the other paste. Lighter, and with the butter, creamy.

Thank you so much.

For the last two months, I have been making small batches of chocolate using paste made by two different women cooperatives in the Dominican Republic. I have been breaking up the balls of paste and softening them up on a double boiler and slowly adding it my Cocoa Town melanger with between 20 and 40% pure cane sugar and/or honey powder. After playing around with 7 - 24 four hour conches/grinds, I like the 24 hour. It is fairly thick as it is being worked in the melanger due to only have cocao butter which was cooked out rather than pressed so I am hesitant to use it.

Received a small order of cacao nibs and butter from Fine Cacao Products who have a warehouse or something in West Hackensack, NJ and sell products made by Conacado's factory in the Dominican Republic called Cafiesa. I had the opportunity to translate for a USAID paid consultant on contract for Equal Exchange for three days last summer. Learned a great deal and I know exactly how this stuff is processed.

I added 1.5 lbs of nibs (much different process heating them up and adding them to the machine), 4 oz of butter and 6 oz of pure cane sugar. After two hours this stuff was very liquified. I am tempted to add some more nibs or milk powder. Any advice is appreciated.

These are amazing lists. I have tried some, quite a few, and appreciate the information.

I visited the Xocolatti shop on Thompson, near Vosges, Kee and Maribelle on Broome. They are all near each other. Jacques Torres is only 4-5 blocks away also. Christopher Norman closed a few months back near Wall Street. The Black Hound in on 2nd Ave off of 14th, I think. You should go in and see Max Brenner on Broadway near 14th. Roni Sue in the Essex Market. The Chocolate Bar and Li Lac or close to each other on 8th Ave near 12 st., I think. The Meadow is a short walk away and probably the largest selection of bars. Burdick and Chocolate Moderne are on 20th and 22nd near 6th and Broadway. Another near Broadway and St. Mark's or 4th street, I can't remember now. I stumbled across the Three Tarts on 19th or so on 9th Ave. Cocoa Bar on Clinton near Houston has some good hot chocolate.

I just keeping finding out about more and will begin exploring New Jersey soon.

Google, chocolate map nyc and you can find most of them.

I think I read it in Mort Rosenblum or something like that, book on chocolate. It is a good read.

I tend to gorge on chocolate on occasion. Because I make micro batches at home and have a cheap supply of paste to grind, and started playing around with making ganches for truffles, bons bons and the like, and have gotten very good at chocolate cupcakes of various sorts; on would say I get somewhere between 100 and 200g a day of chocolate. There are times where I take a day or two off, but miss it. I have also been testing out various chocolate shops around Manhattan over the last six months, and over the course of an afternoon and evening, a dozen truffles or bon bons are very easy to enjoy. My wife and I will sit down and share two or three and then I have a couple more as the evening goes on.

I don't find eating chocolate has affected my weight in any way at all.

I was substituting in a high school in NYC today and one of the classes was working on this exact issue. Each student was looking at FTUSA, FLO and other related issues. Each student had a different commodity and I didn't realize that there is fair trade rice and other products not produced for export on a small scale. I was discussing the SPO oranizations I am familiar with as at applies to coffee and cacao without even knowing it. I will share this information with the teacher. Thank you Clay.

Great idea. I will try that.

I like that

I was just thinking about life in the campo. Just wondering how many of us have slept within a 100m from a cacao tree? I am getting pretty close to 1000 days. How about you?

Best reading are pp. 15-17

http://www.worldcocoafoundation.org/scientific-research/research-library/pdf/Ramli2006%28PostHarvestDrying177KB%29.pdf

Thank you Brad. When I was roasting with the women's groups, we were constantly checking them as they got closer to end. I noticed that the beans were not quite done, they were still a little moist and slightly rubbery. Then they were finished, they were more crisp in their bite. They were also a little dark on the outside before my mentors thought they were done.

I recently bought a small cocao town melanger and have made a dozen or so micro batches in the last month or so. Using mostly Hispanola from the DR and brought back some Sanchez and a couple of pounds "80%" Hispanola. These women cooperatives roasted, milled, winnowed and did a gritty grind and make them into 4oz balls. I also had the chance to translate this summer and see how beans are roasted in a small factory using a continuous method.

Temperatures were much lower. They set the factory roaster at around 170 C to have 115-120 C on the beans. Around 250 F. One women's group uses a pizza type oven and was going toward 350F and burning them. They were putting them in a cold oven and letting it sit for a couple of hours without attending to them. I did a roast with them and the temperatures ranged from 250F - 320F and I had it as low as it would go. It took 45 minutes in a hot oven. The other women's group is roasting in a big open cast iron pot with wood. I measured temperatures around 300F as it reached it's peak. It was about an hour as the pot warmed up and 40-45 for the remaining batches.

I am running out of paste and will have to start buying beans and I appreciate this discussion.

I did one batch of milk chocolate and wondered what percentage of milk powder do you use?

I haven't been aging my chocolate either. Too eager to start using it.

Came across their website today and it looks fantastic. As anyone tried their chocolate. This couple is my role model.

If you can so a google search, can't copy and paste web address.