Forum Activity for @Clay

Sebastian is right.

There is no way that I know of to know what the variety of cacao is just by looking at it. Size is not an indicator - either very large or very small.

Color doesn't say anything as there are "Trinitario-hybrid" varieties (I am thinking of the acriollados in Nicaragua) that can be 10-30% white or pale (lila).

Aroma and taste are no help either.

That said, if you have been working with the same beans from multiple origins for a long period of time you can learn to distinguish between those reliably. However that won't help you when it comes to other sources.

Chocolate makers don't normally refine what's left over after pressing the oil out of it - it get ground into cocoa powder!

If you added it back in to a chocolate recipe it would be the same as not removing the fat to begin with.

Melangeurs don't have the same physical limitations as ball mills. You might be able to refine what's left over after pressing the butter out of it. What you'd have is a low-fat cocoa mass that could be mixed with sugar and, instead of refining it, mold it, and use it for making hot chocolate.

Chris:

Many chocolate makers don't make their own cocoa butter because they are committed to two-ingredient chocolate. For most of the rest who do, $15k in CapEx is a lot of cocoa butter! My personal feeling is that if you're using butter from a different origin as the beans then it's single origin but most use a definition that only covers the beans.

Photos?

And please tell us more about how you are using the Chocovision and why (and when) you are adding coconut oil (a likely source of the problem) as well as the essential oils.

David:

I have seen the IMSA equipment in operation during the Salon del Cacao y Chocolate in Lima in 2015 as well as at a customer site in Lima in 2014. I can't recommend it. It looks good and the prices are decent, but there are some serious build quality issues, especially with the cracker/winnower.

Going with the requirement for no DIY ... 

I can second Sebastian's recommendation of a Binder oven, especially at the scale you are going to be working at and for the intended purpose. I know for a fact that a  Binder FD53  is used for making both the liquor and chocolate samples for the International Cocoa of Excellence Awards. If your budget stretches I would go for the next size up though it's not necessary. There are no special installation issues with this oven that you'd need to consider when using a drum roaster.

As for grinding and refining, at the scale you're talking about I don't see why you need a multi-step process of disc grinder, ball mill, and roll-refiner. Though otherwise expensive, you can get a 12kg/batch melangeur from Kudvic for under US$10,000 with clear lid and their automatic temperature control system.

[ Premier Chocolate Refiners (not the basic grinder) could be used instead of the Kudvic. The batch size is much smaller (about 2kg) but they are very cheap (less than $300 each) and so you could buy a dozen of them and be processing several different recipes at the same time. ]

These melangeurs are not conches, but with some added hot air flow they do a creditable job that is acceptable for your use case scenarios. I have a non-DIY recommendation for airflow for the Premier refiners.

For small batch cracking and winnowing I would recommend the machines from CPS (Commodity Processing Systems) in the UK. There are two winnower sizes, get the large one. Expect to spend about £3000 ($5000) before shipping.

Again at such a small scale and for chocolate for which there is no seed, I can recommend The Chocolate Wave . It's under US$7000 before shipping and can temper 2-3kg of chocolate in a couple of minutes. While you will need to learn how to temper properly (which us a good thing in any event), it's going to be a lot faster in use than a small-batch tempering machine from Chocovision.

I cannot recommend the Pomati T5 for tempering own-made chocolate. The entire cooling system is just too small (compressor capacity and length of the tempering auger) for consistent tempering results for chocolate that is even slightly more viscous than couverture.

While a temper meter like the Tricor is not a bad recommendation, if I recall correctly from talking with their tech guys (and Sebastian please correct me if I am wrong on this), is that it requires having a sample of properly tempered chocolate to compare against. So it's kind of a chicken and egg situation. You can't measure proper temper unless you have properly tempered chocolate to begin with. They do make a machine to measure rheology and that might be interesting.

I also have connections with a refrigeration supply company in the UK (Angel) that offers a 20-pan temperature and humidity–controlled fridge specifically for crystallizing and holding chocolate. It's about £4000 ($6500) before shipping from the UK.

I can help you get quotations and order machines from Kudvic, Chocolate Wave, and Angel Refrigeration. I don't have a connection at Binder or CPS but I can get them for you if you need. 

Chris:

The price is about US$14,000 for a 50kg/hr press (that's mass, not butter), before shipping. If you decide you want to place an order please do it through me so I can expedite and keep track of it for you.

Please use the following format to make it easier for people.

There are three parts. Whether you are selling or buying, what it is you are selling (F/S, For Sale) or WTB (Want to Buy), and where you are located. Each of these three parts should be separated a space-dash-space. See below:

For Sale / Wanted to Buy - What you are selling/looking for - Where you are (as precise as possible - country at least).

Examples:

• F/S - Used Batch Tempering Machine - Chicago
• WTB - Undeodorized Cocoa Butter - WA

Thanks.

Please also take a look at the guidelines for closing posts, which is also pinned.

Chris -

It's hard to tell who the original design/manufacturer of these presses is. Once a design becomes popular it gets knocked of then you end up with knockoffs of knockoffs and so on.

I have a copy of the info sheet on the Delani version of this press in Spanish. I don't see how I can attach it to this post but I have uploaded the file to my profile and you should be able to download it by clicking on this link .

Delani buys these presses from a manufacturer in China and ships them to Peru. There they are checked to make sure that they are wired properly and that there are no manufacturing defects. Delani also includes parts they manufacture that enable the press to operate more efficiently. And, as you can see in the photo on the info sheet they add an enclosure. Yeah, they are more expensive, but you get something that works, not something you're going to have to work on after you get it and before you put it into production.

If you are interested I can help arrange for a quote - I am representing Delani in the US.

Armin -

A quick search shows that neem leaves are used with cocoa in Ghana. There is nothing however about how the leaves are used.

Mariano -

It is only necessary to post in one forum. I am closing this one and asking that everyone comment on your post in the Tips forum .

A flow wrap machine uses rolls of film.

Miles -

The best way to update a post like this is to "close" the old post by selecting "Closed" after clicking on the light bulb icon. That will let the old post age off gracefully. You can then post a new Classified with the updated information.

You are looking for what is called a flow wrapping machine. 

Prices are based on the size of the film that can be handled (width and length) as well the number of pieces per hour that can be wrapped ++ options that include not wrapping when there is no product present, metal detectors, and more. It's important to keep in mind that you don't get what you don't pay for. Skimping out on features at purchase could lead to production struggles.

One key aspect of the design to inquire about is the ease of changing the knives. Some models make it easy - some make it very hard.

The FW 350TC  available from PAC Machinery (US) is one of the smallest I know of. I do not know the price and I do not know anyone who has one and have no information on how easy it is to adjust or to use. This is solely based on size, which is what you appear to be most concerned about.

When an item is bought or sold, please mark it is as such.

On the Forum page there is an icon of a light bulb. 

Click on it and select a status from among the list.

For Sale items should be marked SOLD.

Wanted to Buy items should be marked COMPLETED.

If your need is URGENT you can mark it as such after it's posted.

Thank you.

I think the issue here is that David is dealing with a government procurement process and the government is in Colombia.

There is probably no budget for a consultant to make sense of what has been specified and it may not be possible to move money around between line items even if the items or wrong or the money can be better spent in other ways.

Right or wrong, that may be the reality of the situation David faces.

One effect is not better than the other, they are different.

If what you want to do is decorate a shell mold with a high-gloss sheen and air-brush/spatter pattern(s) (Norman Love is the acknowledged innovator and master at this technique) then you want to use cocoa butter.

Spraying chocolate gives you a flock/textured effect and is not normally used on confections but cakes and sculptures.

There is a total difference. You'd use uncolored cocoa butter as the first layer in the mold is going to give you a shiny surface. Them you build up the layers of color in reverse before filling the mold with chocolate to create the shell.

The more colorant you add to the cocoa butter the more opaque it becomes.

David:

You are asking us to do the impossible because we don't have enough information to answer your questions. Without knowing how much chocolate you need to make, making a recommendation - any recommendation - is not helpful to you.

That said, to the best of my knowledge, there are no small ball mills at the prices you say you need, except maybe for machines I would not trust to arrive broken, break down immediately, or be made with non-food-safe materials. Search on Alibaba to see what I mean.

Daniel, Peter:

Can we please move the conversation about the universal to another thread? I don't want to take over David's thread.

:: Clay

There are airbrushes specifically designed to spray colours. A good  source for information about them is Chef Rubber (www.chefrubber.com).

You use these to spray colored cocoa butter, which is quite fluid.

Generally, if you want to spray chocolate you would use a spray gun made for paint (e.g., Wagner Power Painter), or you can purchase a spray gun specifically made for chocolate (e.g., Krebs).

Thanks for the comments on my avatar. A friend of mine who is a macaron baker (ex- art director) in Amsterdam did it for me.

What does reasonably–priced mean to you? What you think is expensive might be cheap to someone else. It's important to consider where your market is - you can charge more in most big cities than in small towns so cost of chocolate is one thing to be factored in. Right now there are too many unknowns.

In what quantities do you want to buy? It may be that prices are high because you are buying in small quantities. As for a basis for comparison, take a look at the prices for couverture on Chocosphere.com and on Amazon.com. You should to that before you come back with more questions.

Lauren -

There are two different issues at play here:

1. What chocolate you want to use.
2. What company you are going to buy the chocolate from.

For example, you might purchase Guittard directly (a pallet at a time) or in smaller amounts through a company like Ciao Imports or Sysco.

If you were interested in using Felchlin you'd be in touch with Swiss Chalet Fine Foods out of Miami who would connect you with a local rep.

Chocosphere is a source for many different brands of chocolate for tasting and testing.

I would focus first on what chocolate brand(s) you want to use and then figure out the best supplier, which includes factors such as shipping and availability (do they always have what you want in stock).

PS. - Chocoley probably does not "make Belgian chocolate." What they do most likely is contract with a manufacturer that is associated with Belgium who supplies them product on a private-label basis. It could be Barry-Callebaut (which is really a Swiss company, now), but the product could be manufactured in Belgium - or in Vermont or Canada.

I found this review on Amazon which confirms some of my thoughts:

I ordered this bowl to help me temper chocolate, it didn't.

Firstly if you think the heating element runs up the sides of the bowl your wrong, it gets heated by the very very bottom of the bowl, um, so if you were to say place 2 pounds of chocolate in it... maybe the very bottom melts... the rest just sits there, way faster to just place in microwave.

You will have the same problem once you get your choclate into temper the "range" you get doesnt allow you to stay between say 87 and 92 (by 93 your out of temper).

If you take a thermal gun and take readings up the sides of the bowl (even a mere inch off the bottom) the temperature drops off so quickly...

Ridiculous waste off money, sad because I had high hopes...

They need to redesign this thing...

Lauren:

I think this is a very interesting product but two of the primary concerns I had about it were temperature range and accuracy. According to Kitchen Aid:

Precision Temperature Technology (?)

Select any temperature from 70 to 220 degrees F (21 to 104 degrees C) in two degree increments.

So the precision is not all that precise ... when it comes to working with chocolate. I can see how it would be great for a home kitchen where tempering chocolate is an occasional thing, but maybe not so much for the professional kitchen. My guess is that it's actually ± 1C, which is 1.9F.

That said, as Brad suggests ... if I already have the right model of Kitchen Aid mixer getting one of these and playing with it is probably worth the investment and I can see it as fast and efficient chocolate melter in conjunction with a scraper blade.

Lauren -

Welcome to TheChocolateLife!

David -

Sebastian is right, of course. Without knowing what you want to produce and how much you need to make in any given time it's very difficult to know where to direct you.

Daniel -

Did you buy them roasted or did you roast them yourself. If you roasted them yourself, did they look this way before you roasted them?

I know several makers who have Cacao Cucina equipment. It's value is that it is NSF certified and made with UL listed parts and adhere to all sorts of safety regulations. Therefore, they tend to be expensive for what they offer. People like the cracker/winnowers, even though they are expensive. The one piece of equipment I've seen in use that I just cannot recommend at all is the liquor grinder.

Caotech and Buhler are both highly-respected companies so I would have no problems recommending equipment from either of them. It's a matter of capacity and pricing. 

By lab conche, you refer to a "universal?"

David:

With regard to the error, you are trying to enter some HTML directly into your post that is not allowed - or something the software thinks is HTML. One reason is to keep people from posting arbitrary Javascript. Were you using any pointy brackets "<" or ">"?

To the best of my knowledge there are no ball mills at the price point you mention, lab or otherwise — even very small ones.

I know of a source for a two-roll refiner (granite or steel, 300mm wide, low-speed) for under €10,000. Three-roll refiners (granite or steel, 400mm wide) are €12,000 or so. Both are plus shipping.

Greg -

You should try to replace the strings with ones of the same diameter. If you are uncertain what that is, contact the manufacturer or a reseller here in the US, who would also have the tools.

Some people I know put their guitars on a half-size (short) bun rack (speed-rack). They can found for $60-$120 through online stores. They can also cost $300+ but a search should reveal a good price.

You can try a silicone mat to see if you like it. Most people I know use acetate as you'll get a smoother surface.

TheChocolateLife is what you make of it.

It's a fabulous repository of information and discussion going back over eight years now.

Posting into one of the main forum areas almost always gets responses - and often many of them; not many people say hello

Grant -

I've known Nino for many years as a ChocolateLife member and FBM customer. I had the opportunity to meet him for the first time at the Salon du Chocolat in Paris last October.

Glad the two of you can connect!

There is a huge amount of science on these topics that inform the engineering of tempering machines, especially "continuous" machines. 

The basic idea is to:

• Get the chocolate hot enough to melt out any crystals.
• Cool the chocolate down to force the formation of a certain percentage of Form V (five) crystals so that when the chocolate cools the "seed" crystals force the formation of Form V crystals as the dominant type to get a nice sheen, snap, and stability.

In a screw-type continuous tempering machine (for example) any crystals in the chocolate is are melted out by the time the chocolate reaches the bottom of the bowl. The chocolate is then pumped through a cooled pipe. The crystals are formed on the inner surface of the pipe and scraped off and mixed by the auger/screw. By the time the chocolate exits the top of the pipe it's in temper. Any chocolate that is not used goes back into the bowl where the crystals get melted out. It is necessary to match the length and temperature of the pipe with the flow of the chocolate to make sure that enough of the right crystals are formed and mixed properly. I know that on some FBM machines there is a "hard" and a "soft" temper setting that can be selected based on the type of chocolate. Some chocolates can be cooled faster than others (it depends on rheology/fat content). With those chocolates the "hard" temper setting is chosen and this runs the cooling system more aggressively.

With many batch tempering systems seed chocolate that is already properly tempered is required to force the proper crystal structure as the chocolate cools down. In these systems you can run them as hard as you like, but you need to pay close attention to make sure you're not over-crystallizing. Semi-automatic machines (such as Chocovision) have sensors and microprocessors that have time/temp curves built in. Manual systems (e.g., JKV, Hilliard) require that you control the temperatures manually, so you have to know how to temper to use them effectively.

Manual tempering (e.g., using a melter) or assisted-manual tempering (Chocolate Wave) require that you know how to temper and what temper looks like. The process is to create seed chocolate and add it to melted chocolate and then find an equilibrium temperature where crystals are not melted out or do not form too quickly. How long the process takes is up to the skill of the person doing the tempering.

Ideally, what you're looking to do is get into temper as quickly as possible and spend as little time as possible to maintain temper. You can't apply so much heat that you scorch the chocolate (or cause it to separate) and you don't want to cool it so quickly that you can't control the speed of crystallization and the chocolate over-crystallizes.

No matter what the approach, from my experience it is having precise control over temperature that is important, followed by reaction time. For example, if you're using a system that requires cold water for cooling you need to make sure that the temperature of the water is consistent. If you need more cooling, it might be hard to lower the water temperature quickly - or warm it back up. If you are recirculating refrigerant gas, the reaction time is much faster, and you can use resistance wiring to warm things up quickly.

If you're working by hand, controlling the envionmental ambient temperature and humidity are one key to consistent tempering. You also want warming vessels that are preceisely calibrated and can maintain a consistent temperature. With manual  (or assisted-manual) tempering it's also about tempering the right amount of chocolate for your production needs.

Marc:

Welcome to TheChocolateLife!

There are other alternative oils you can use ... I've tasted some pretty fantasting olive oil ganaches made with truly excellent oils; you can taste the spice and grass and other notes with the right chocolate!

Rosen -

Welcome to The Chocolate Life. We are here to help!

What tempering machine are you using?

Who in your operation knows how to temper properly by hand? Part of the issue is that you may be relying on the machine to temper and you are using a temperature formula that does not work for your chocolate. This is less of an issue with commercial couverture (but it is an issue). When you are making your own chocolate, the challenges are much greater.

Changes in humidty can affect temper. If the humidity is 55% one day and 75% the next then the temper points are likely to be different.

Just because you use a high-end tempering machine (what brand?) does not mean that the chocolate is in temper. The machines are not artificially intelligent - they only do what you tell them to do. The moisture in coconut palm sugar is particularly problematic.

David -

The whole idea of TheChocolateLife is open sharing. I hope people will answer publicly here - perhaps in addition to responding privately.

October is shot for many of us. There is a chocolate show here in NY the first weekend, then Chocolate Week in London followed by Origin Chocolate in Amsterdam and then the Salon du Chocolat in Paris.

In the US, anyway, you have the NW Chocolate Festival in mid-November followed by Thanksgiving. Trying to get most people out of their workshops to travel in December is going to be tough.

So that leaves September. After the 11th and then finish before the end of the month.

You want a mix of people to attend - buyers for sure (specialty brokers and small chocolate makers), but also people who can promote more generally ... writers, video production, and etc.

The organizers at the Salon del Cacao y Chocolate have done a great job of organizing these kinds of events/trips over the past five years.

I am interested in attending!

Grant -

Brad gives a lot of good advice here. 

Right now it sounds like everything is abstract. Actually make the products and try them and then give them to your friends and have them try them. Test them out. You won't know what works until you do.

One thing we don't know is where you are. Brad's shop is in Calgary, Alberta, CA, and that market might be different from other markets.

Using butter is a bad idea - there's already enough fat in cocoa. If you want to make your product thicker/richer just use less liquid or mix different milks. See the Wikipedia entry on this .

Why are you reluctant to use cornstarch? Have you tried it?

The most important take-away from what Brad says is that by trying to be everything to everybody you end diluting (pun intended) the brand and end up being ... without a viewpoint. You cannot cater to every potential food allergy or dietary fad out there.

Pick something and do it well. Own it unapologetically and do the best you can. Yes, you will lose some business ... but focus on the 90% who want your product and not the 10%. (Is there a vegan meetup in your area?)

If you want to do a water base and then prepare it with milk or water that's about as far as I would go ... but if you are steaming will you have to have two of everything (do you have room in your mobile environment?) to avoid cross-contamination -- the fraction of your customers who are vegans (research suggests that about 2.5% of the population is vegan - at the high end - but I bet the percentage of vegans in Omaha, NE is a lot less than in San Francisco) will require it.

But until you actually test in your market you can't know.

Brad - $6 Canadian? What's that in real money? [ Tongue planted firmly in cheek - it's a joke everyone. ]

Grant - there's some good advice in what Brad has to say. One is that you need to take a look at how long it's going to prepare a serving. One of the fastest ways — if you are committed to a la minute preparation — is to steam/froth an already prepare liquid. You don't have to have a 100% prepared in advance mix if your concept is something else, but take into consideration preparation times. It shouldn't take longer than preparing a cappuccino.

Water and milk make very different products. One is not necessarily better than the other, they are different. Traditionally, dairy was not used, water was. Cornstarch is a pretty modern ingredient in hot chocolate mixtures and is great (in small amounts) for adding mouth feel and body. Keep in mind that it does take some extra time for the starch to fully hydrate and if you serve it too soon it can have a pasty texture whether you use milk or water. In Mexico they used (and still use) very finely ground corn flour in their atole (also called champurrado).

If you wanted a very "authentic" product then water and very fine corn flour are one way to go. A more modern take (and one that might appeal to more customers) would be dairy and cornstarch. Of course, they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

AND, if you are going to use dairy, use the absolute best — freshest and most flavorful — dairy you can source.

:: Clay

Sanja -

The chocolate is not tempered properly. What you have here is a classic case of fat bloom.

The best way to fix the problem is to hone you tempering skills. That said, what are you using to sweeten the chocolate? Some sweeteners have a lot of moisture in them that interferes with the tempering process - so it could partly be a recipe issue.

Also - ambient environment can have an affect. Do you monitor temperature and humidity where you temper?