If Selmi is the Cadalac what is a JKV and why?

David Marcoe
@david-marcoe
05/24/11 11:49:37AM
7 posts
I am just setting up my shop and trying to figure out if spending an additional $10K on a Selmi tempering machine compared to JKV is worth the price. Does anyone have both or used both and why is the Selmi considered so much better in everything I have read?
updated by @david-marcoe: 04/10/15 03:09:57AM
Linda Grishman
@linda-grishman
05/24/11 03:53:54PM
26 posts

I would highly recommend Hilliard. I have two 250lb machines. One I purchased new in 1993. And the other was a used machine that I purchased a few years later.

They are reliable, accurate and easy to use.

Cleaning is a snap. All you have to do is remove the bowl.

They hold their temper unlike some of the smaller tabletop machines.

They are also relatively quiet, again unlike the smaller table top machines.

I have tested many machines over the years and I think that Hilliard is by far the best.

If you need to add a conveyor and cooling tunnel Hillard has those as well. They are located in Mass.

If I can provide anymore info, please reply.

Linda Grishman

sweetonvermont.com

Jeff Stern
@jeff-stern
05/24/11 05:28:09PM
78 posts
I cant speak to the Selmi or JKV directly but I have a Prefamac, which is quite similar in design to the JKV and am very happy with it. I suggest you contact Brian Donaghy at Tomric about the Selmis, they are the US distiributor. His quote to me was "they rock." If you'd like more info about the Prefamac I'm happy to share my experience.
Carlos Eichenberger
@carlos-eichenberger
05/24/11 05:37:18PM
158 posts

The difference in price is more of a fundamental difference in function between the machines.

The Selmi, as a continuous tempering machine, will keep the chocolate in temper throughout the working day without needing to slowly raise your working temperatures during the day. This is achieved with a closed refrigeration/heating loop that as the name suggests, continuously de-tempers and re-tempers the chocolate.

The JKVs are wheel machines, normally with light bulbs as a heat source and forced air for cooling. They use seed chocolate for tempering, and as such will need some attention through the day. The chocolate will thicken and you will need to gradually raise your temps until it's no longer in proper temper. Then it's time to stop and re-temper.

So, you're paying that extra money for extra throughput and added convenience. On the other hand, if you're a DIY type, these machines (Selmi) are much more difficult to fix yourself.

I personally like Linda use Hilliard's machines and they are certainly up to the task. They are rugged and simple to operate and maintain (they use light bulbs/forced air too). I was lucky enough to find all my gear used for an unbeatable price. For me it was an easy choice because of the DIY aspect, since I do most of the maintenance/repair work myself.

Pierre (Pete) Trinque
@pierre-pete-trinque
05/24/11 05:38:26PM
19 posts

David,

Not sure if I'll be of much help, but here are my thoughts. We opened our shop in March and are currently using 3 Hilliard machines. We bought them used and sent them back to be refurbished last year. They are doing a fine job, but they are not a Selmi. We have looked at and drooled over the Selmi for sometime now and once we can afford one we will purchase it. We have heard from several other chocolatier's that the Selmi keeps temper extremely well, can switch chocolate relatively easily and has a small footprint. The enrober is what we are really looking for because the production boost of the Selmiversus the Hilliard system is like night and day. Also the enrober is a quick dis-connect and can be stored in a small space in the upright position. I have not used a JKV but I have heard that they are harder to clean and that the wheel can sometime be problematic. Again, that is second hand info. Last, the Selmi has very good service and support where we have heard not so good reports on JKV. That's my two cents worth. Like you, would love to hear from others.

Pierre

Jeff Stern
@jeff-stern
05/24/11 06:42:09PM
78 posts

Actually, like the JKV machines, with the Prefamac you temper the chocolate once and don't have to retemper throughout the day. As the chocolate thickens, you just notch up the thermostat a couple tenths of a degree to break crystal down. You can temper once and just, as mentioned by cheebs, keep an eye on it throughout the day and adjust as necessary-but not retemper. I also like that the Prefamac is built like a tank, easy to fix if necessary. I've been running mine nearly daily 2.5 years without a hitch. My Prefamac doesn't have light bulbs over the top for additional ambient heat but has ceramic heat lamps-all heat but no light.

I too agree, you're paying for more bells and whistles. As Michael Reccchiuti said to me about his Sollich enrober, the machine does nothing for you, you have to do everything for the machine. I think the final quality of your product is far more dependent on your skill as a chocolatier than anything-it's like photography, you can have the best equipment in the world and still take sucky pictures if you don't know how to use it. Or, have a lousy camera and take really great shots-if you know what you're doing. Not to say that JKVs, Hilliards, or Prefamacs are lousy-but they may require a bit more "operator" knowledge and skill.

Ruth Atkinson Kendrick
@ruth-atkinson-kendrick
05/25/11 12:50:31AM
194 posts

I have an 80# Hilliard and have loved it for 30 years:-) I also have 3 Savage 50# temper/melters. If I had to give one up, it would be the Hilliard. Just depends on what you are going to do with it. If you are molding, the Savage is wonderful. If hand dipping, the Hilliard is great.

I had a chance 2 weeks ago to see the Selmi in operation at Tomric. It is a wonderful machine. I have a Perfect enrober that uses a wheel to temper. As I looked with envy at the Selmi, I decided it was a Mercedes to the basic Ford of the Perfect. They both get the job done, but the Selmi does it looking so much better:-) The mechanics of the enrober are basically the same on both machines. The Selmi tempers much easier, but for the $10,000 saved on the Perfect, I can do a little work.

antonino allegra
@antonino-allegra
05/25/11 03:19:29AM
143 posts

Hi, i have been working with Selmi and prefamac, and i can tell you that if you want to speed up your work and achieve an higher consistency, the Selmi-style machine is much better than the old wheel machine.

Tempering is achieved in no time and consistency of temper is key factor. Like you i consider Selmi a bit too expensive so i turned my eyes to another italian company, Fbm Boscolo. they build similar machine (not that stylish)and at a fraction of the Selmi price. Definitely i'll never buy a wheel machine again, it takes forever, you must keep an eye continuously on the machine and is not efficient at all (30kg capacity=15kg/h out put Vs Selmi/Fbm boscolo 25kg capacity=100kg/h output)

cheers

Samuel Maruta
@samuel-maruta
05/25/11 10:23:18AM
19 posts

I think another advantage of the Selmi (or similar designs, other brands we've looked at like Chocolate World or Gami make nearly identical machines) over the wheel is that you can keep feeding it with melted chocolate for a truly continuous production.

What happens is that with a wheel machine you have to temper the chocolate in the beginning and then keep it in temperature and motion so that it doesn't solidify. In the Selmi you have a 'tap' and a 'sink' (although I think they call it a tank, but it's actually open like a sink. Between those 2 is a circuit that pumps the chocolate from the sink and spits it out through the tap. Unlike in a wheel machine, the tank just contains melted chocolate, not tempered chocolate and the tempering process (cooling at a precise temperature) actually happens in the circuit between the sink and the tap: that's why you get tempered chocolate coming out of the tap, and as you use up the content of the tank you can add more chocolate pellets or more melted chocolate from a kettle. The result is much higher productivity, but the extra cost can probably only be justified if you have the quantity to match.

Jeff Stern
@jeff-stern
05/25/11 10:30:14AM
78 posts
I fully agree with Samuel's observation about the advantages of the Selmi over the wheel machines as far as continuous production. That being said, however, you can easily add melted chocolate into the tank of a JKV or Prefamac, as long as it's not way too hot or cold, if you need to refill the tank. Let it run a few minutes to mix and your batch will stay crystallized just fine. Prefamac's 30 kg tank will supply enough to enrobe for many hours in temper-you'd have to be doing a lot of product to have to refill the tank in a day-by a lot of product I mean at least 5,000+ 2.5x 2.5cm pieces (about 50 kgs in total product weigh ie enrobed centers). As far as production speeds, with two of us running the Prefamac we can do 700-1,000 pieces per hour.
David Marcoe
@david-marcoe
05/25/11 12:26:29PM
7 posts

Thanks to everyone for puting in their two cents it is very helpful.

Selmi or simular seems to be great for production and ease of controling temper allowing mass production.

Wheel machines seem more affordable, work fine, but need more attention throughout the day.

Both machines do the same thing, but in a different way and it is up to the operator to control the quality of the temper on both. which is fine.

You have all given me names of companies I will be checking out, unless by the luck of the draw there is a used machine I run into with a price I cannot resist I am leaning toward a Selmi type, we will see.

Linda Grishman
@linda-grishman
05/25/11 02:06:28PM
26 posts

When I first saw the Selmi many years ago, I didn't like the fact that you couldn't clean it. If something was accidentally dropped into the auger, how would you get it out?

Unless it has been changed, it would still be my concern. Hilliard is made in the USA. Customer service is stellar. Should a fuse need to be replaced it's simple. As mentioned above, I have had my machines for 18 years. All that needed to be replaced was a fuse. If you can change a light bulb, you can change a fuse.

The 250lb machines are set up for the addition of their conveyor from small to large.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Linda Grishman
@linda-grishman
05/25/11 02:14:53PM
26 posts

Hi: To reply to cheebs. Only the small table top Hilliards cooling/heating is done with light bulbs.

The larger machines use electric heating and cooling elements.

Being very mechanical I have been able to change elements when they wear out. This has only happened once in 20 years.

It also keeps it's temper perfectly throughout the day and chocolate can constantly be added to the back where it melts. As the bowl rotates, it is transfered to the front keeping a steady tempered quantity for production.

I would not be comfortable with a machine that has it's most crucial parts invisible.

Linda

Linda Grishman
@linda-grishman
05/25/11 02:21:21PM
26 posts

Well that's absolutely true Jeff, but you also have to employ people who have experience tempering, otherwise should something go wrong with a machine, they would most likely not be able to handle it.

Hand tempering is a crucial first step in understanding and working with chocolate. One of the first tasks I do with a new employee is teach them how to hand temper the easiest and cleanest way that does not require a slab and a mess.

Linda

Brian Donaghy
@brian-donaghy
05/25/11 04:00:54PM
58 posts

Linda.

The newest Selmi's can be purchased with a removable screw option that allow for a complete changeout of chocolate but even the olded models have a drain on the back that allow for a complete emptying of the bowl without the screw having to turn.

And yes Jeff, I do think the Selmi's "rock." Temper is consistent and constant and are rarely does ambiance change its functionality. Obviously they are not inexespensive but when looking at the equipment (or any equipment) compare apples to apples and the Selmi is functionally different that a wheel machine.

brian

antonino allegra
@antonino-allegra
05/25/11 04:26:20PM
143 posts

I agree with Brian. There are apples and apples...

20 years ago cars had manual windows, now they come all with electric windows. what is the difference? It makes life easier!

I won't buy a Selmi 'cause the price, but we are in the process to order a Fbm/Boscolo Unica.

Can't wait to get to work and have the chocolate already tempered automatically, and not waste an hour to get the "old wheel" comfortable to work... time is money!

Nino

David Marcoe
@david-marcoe
05/25/11 04:36:24PM
7 posts
Is ther a rep for the FBM machines in the USA?
Jeff Stern
@jeff-stern
05/25/11 04:52:43PM
78 posts
I absolutely agree! You have to understand and be able to temper before doing anything.
antonino allegra
@antonino-allegra
05/25/11 04:52:44PM
143 posts

not sure cause i'm South Africa , but i can give you the direct contact emailfbm@boscolo.it, Mr. Roveda.

Not sure if i'm allowed to post email addresses here, so just in case i apologize in advance.

Jeff Stern
@jeff-stern
05/25/11 04:56:01PM
78 posts
Point taken, Brian. :-) If I had had another $10k when I was buying, I would definitely have considered a machine like the Selmi! But I didn't...
David Marcoe
@david-marcoe
05/25/11 06:28:24PM
7 posts

Brian & Jeff,

Have you ever looked into the Gami machines? They seem simular to the Selmi, but a few thousand less, but with very simular features.

I will admit that the ability to remove the auger on the Selmi PlusEX is temptingbecause I only want one machine at this time and changing chocolate is of concern. <(*_*)>

David


updated by @david-marcoe: 09/10/15 08:16:38AM
Jeff Stern
@jeff-stern
05/25/11 07:10:54PM
78 posts
Have not and dont know much about them. Also just found this company...Pomati. Dont know if they have a US distributor.... http://www.pomati.it/eng/carrello_ricopertura.htm .
Brian Donaghy
@brian-donaghy
05/25/11 08:02:53PM
58 posts

I am familiar with both the Pomati and Gami - I would recommend the Selmi and not just b/c the US distributor for Selmi is a client.

brian

Scott
@scott
05/26/11 10:08:55AM
44 posts
Apropos of nothing, Renato Selmi's entry into confectionary equipment began in Piedmont in the 1960s with machines for production of hazelnut paste for gianduia. Similarly, the first piece of confectionary equipment developed by Enrico Carle in 1907 (who went on to co-found Carle & Montanari) was a device to extrude gianduia into gianduiotti. (Gianduia--not just a footnote in chocolate history.)
P B Marshall
@p-b-marshall
05/26/11 11:12:51AM
4 posts

I have a Selmi - and I love it! We've had other machines, but there is nothing like the Selmi. It truly does make everything easier. it stays in temper all day. Great for molding and enrobing. Yes... I can't imagine trying to fix it, but the people at Tomric are always there to help you. We did have a problem once, turned out to be "human" error, but Brian/Sean walked us through it over the phone in 15 minutes. OK - it is much prettier than the other machines and I say you get what you pay for. Hope this helps a bit,

~ Pamela

Linda Grishman
@linda-grishman
05/26/11 01:13:04PM
26 posts

Hi Antonio. I am a former South African. Have lived in the USA since 1976. Started my business in 1985 out of my NYC apt. Am self-taught and have a vast knowledge about the industry.

Would love to know more about you and your chocolate business. You can email me directly at choclinda@aol.com

Lekker bly,

Linda G.

Dave Elliott
@dave-elliott
05/27/11 04:49:30AM
17 posts
Anyone have experience running a Selmi with inclusions? We currently use table-top models and swap about bowls between batches with different inclusions and/or chocolate. The Hilliard machines claim to be quite apt for this task, but I would love to hear thoughts from folks using >50lb tempering units.
Tom Bauweraerts
@tom-bauweraerts
06/01/11 07:49:21AM
23 posts

Dear Antonino,

I happed to see your message in this forum. I don't think that you can compare the FBM machines with the Selmi machinery. The tempering in the FBM machine is done totally different than in the FBM machine, which will result in different result after a while work. If you make the investment for an automatic tempering machine, please think twice because we speak about a lot of money. You can send a mail to me on t.bauweraerts@selmi-group.it as I am the export manager of Selmi and I hope to be able to change your mind on this and to let you understand that Selmi is very good and reliable with a very good service worldwide. Thanks, Tom

Tom Bauweraerts
@tom-bauweraerts
06/01/11 07:53:25AM
23 posts

If you want to use inclusions, this works with the Selmi EX models with removable screw. We can add pieces up to 2 mm and can mix and do the moulding of tables, eggs, etc. We hope to be on the next Philadelphia Candy show to show you this.

regards and thanks for the comments! Tom

Dave Elliott
@dave-elliott
06/03/11 05:06:20PM
17 posts
Just spoke with Savage regarding a metered dispensing pump with a powered valve that can handle larger inclusions, though it will cut them if they are inside the valve when it closes (i.e. when the metered amount has been deposited). Anyone have experience with these?
Dave Elliott
@dave-elliott
06/03/11 05:07:18PM
17 posts
I would also like to know what solutions Selmi has available for larger inclusions.
Linda Grishman
@linda-grishman
06/03/11 10:51:48PM
26 posts

Hi David,

I tested one for them a number of years ago. The pump was so slow that I could have filled my molds by hand 10 times over.

I know that they have a bunch of new products though. If you are interested in a metering pump, I am having one made later this year.

It has been a long and arduous task getting good engineers to make it. This pump will be able to take larger inclusions and the cleaning is simple and quick. Most component will have quick disconnects.

If you like I'll put your name on my mailing list.

Best,

Linda

Clay Gordon
@clay
06/04/11 04:46:20PM
1,680 posts

Linda:

I know several people who would be interested in a metering pump that could handle larger inclusions ... perhaps there's a way to get it done sooner rather than later? ... Let me know. What kind of diameter are you planning to be able to handle?

:: Clay




--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
clay - http://www.thechocolatelife.com/clay/
Dave Elliott
@dave-elliott
06/04/11 05:08:46PM
17 posts
Thanks for the info, Linda. Please add me to the list. I'd like to learn more.
Tom Bauweraerts
@tom-bauweraerts
06/06/11 05:58:53AM
23 posts

We are looking and already have a good success with Hazelnuts, but the machine is a prototype and not yet ready for sales.

Keep looking to our website www.selmi-group.it or join : https://www.facebook.com/SelmiChocolateMachinery

to follow all our news.

Dave Elliott
@dave-elliott
06/06/11 01:04:06PM
17 posts
Thanks for the info.
Melanie Boudar
@melanie-boudar
06/06/11 03:23:34PM
104 posts
I have a Selmi and have used all kinds of tempering and enrobing equipment. I think the basic question you have to answer is what will you be using it for? If you are dipping, the Hillards equipment is adequate and without a high price tag. The bowl type machines however are inefficient for mass molding and wear and tear on your hands. I chose a Selmi because of its compact footprint, and versatility. I do a lot of molding and can mold about 100 molds per hour on Selmi due to the way the vibration table and scraper work.Additionally I can hook up the enrobing attachment in about 20 minutes and be sending all my slabbed ganache or other items to be enrobed down the belt. I can operate the machine by myself although someone loading speeds it along. If I use all the chocolate (my model holds about 50lbs,) I can load it and be up and running again in 1/2 hr.There is always plenty to do in that 1/2 hr so it is not a problem. Also the 50lbs enrobes a lot of pieces so I rarely use up an entire tank for a run.Since its a continuous temperer, I temper it in the Am and have problem free chocolate all day long whenever I need it. I look at it as the cost of great employee-without calling in sick, needing insurance or other problems. Like all machines there is some maintainence and the occasional hiccup but I'd rather have good equipment than a lot of people.
Tom Bauweraerts
@tom-bauweraerts
06/07/11 01:30:34AM
23 posts

Hi Melanie, hope you are well. We now have a new machine, the Micron, to make chocopaste, hazelnutpaste, pistachepaste etc etc, we can do wonderful things with this machine. It's a ball mill refiner. The video is on our website since a few days. I will be coming to the Philadelphia Candy show in Atlantic City to present all the Selmi machinery at the Tomric booth. Hope to see you there i

Davy Asnong
@davy-asnong
06/07/11 07:17:51AM
19 posts

This thursday I will go to a demonstration day of the Selmi machines. When you google Henk Koenen, you'll find them.They sell all kind of chocolate machinery, and are in Holland. I will also try to get as much as information as possible.


updated by @davy-asnong: 01/29/15 01:24:04AM
Tom Bauweraerts
@tom-bauweraerts
06/07/11 07:21:00AM
23 posts
Hi Davy, so we will meet, I will be there during the 2 days of demonstrations. Many of the machinery will be shown there. See you then ! Tom
Richard Foley
@richard-foley
06/07/11 11:29:16AM
48 posts

David,

We have several JKV Machines for sale, used, and similar copies as well. In simple terms, JKV (Prefamac, and similar) are melters with mixing wheels and agitation. The skill of tempering is still needed, only a few tools assist you. The key to tempering is TIME, TEMPERATURE, MOVEMENT. On a JKV you set the temperature, the machine moves the chocolate, and you wait for it to be tempered. However if you are not experienced, the machine does not do it for you. You must seed the machine with wafers or tempered solid chunks in order to cool it and slightly re heat to get final temper (experience and precision)

The Selmi on the other hand has a built in cooling unit, and computerized controller, therefore it does a Batch of chocolate, cools, mixes, and final re-heat automatically. This is more forgiving and takes less skill.

On the other hand if you are doing alot of moulding the JKV delivers chocolate via the spout, and has a built in vibrator, great for doing molded pralines, once you get the hang of tempering yourself. THe Selmi has attachments for this, but pricier.

I have used a whole variety of semi automatic machines over the years, and fully automated continuous machines. One thing I can advise is when it comes to tempering, dont take short cuts. The time you will waste, product you will spoil, and frustration you will have will cost far more over time than the cost of buying a top quality tempering machine in the beginning.


updated by @richard-foley: 09/12/15 10:47:06PM
Linda Grishman
@linda-grishman
06/07/11 01:26:04PM
26 posts

Hi Clay:

Since I have spent years with a variety of engineers who were useless, to put it mildly. I am confident that the pump will do the job. I don't mind waiting few more months to make sure that this time I will have a great piece of machinery. It will also be able to handle larger inclusions like whole almonds.

As soon as I have a working model and have thoroughly tested it, I will let you know.

Hope all is well. When are you coming to Vermont again!

Linda

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